120- The Gut-Brain Connection and its Effect on ADHD Symptoms with Dana Kay

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Welcome to Every Brain is Different, the podcast where we celebrate the unique world of neurodiversity. We are your hosts, Samantha Foote, a neurodivergent, Board Certified Music Therapist and mom to three kids of ADHD and autism. And Lauren Ross, an ally to the neurodivergent community with over 10 years of experience supporting children and adults with autism.

This podcast is for parents like you. Navigating the world of neurodiversity with love and compassion. Together we'll create a world where every brain is valued and celebrated. We're excited to embark on this enlightening journey with you.

Transcript:

Samantha Foote: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Every Brain is Different Podcast. We are here with Donna Kay, she is a leading ADHD expert, board certified health practitioner, two times international bestselling author, host of The Soaring Child podcast, and the CEO and founder of the ADHD Thrive Institute. She's also a mother to a child with ADHD, and [00:01:00] she knows firsthand the struggles that come with parenting a neurodiverse child.

Welcome to the show! We're so excited to have you!

Dana Kay: Thank you so much, Samantha, so much, Lauren. I'm really excited to be here.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you're involved in the neurodivergent community?

Dana Kay: Yeah, look, I, I work with families all across the US. I know I don't sound like I come from the US. I live in a sunny Seattle, I say sunny lightly. And I work with families that have neurodivergent children every single day, specifically children with ADHD and related challenges. Uh, through my, my company, ADHD Thrive Institute, we've been lucky enough to support over 1,500 families, really helping those parents reduce symptoms naturally, really focusing on the biological triggers that are going on in the body, looking at diet, gut health, inflammation, things like that. All of those things that are affecting the behavior, the mood, the sleep, the focus. For me, it's, it's not really about [00:02:00] fixing the child, it's about supporting their biology so they can thrive.

And I also educate through my podcast, The Soaring Child, my programs, my online trainings, and par- really supporting parents 'cause I know I've been in the thick of it back in the day when, when my son was, was really, really struggling.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. And I love that you say you don't fix kids, you just help them with their biology because so many people, a few-- This has been a few years, but they would bring their kid to me and just say, "Fix them." And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. We are not, we're not here to fix them. Like, they don't need fixing, they just need support so that they can thrive in this world that wasn't made for them." And honestly, a lot of the things that needed, like, quote, unquote "fixing" was how the parents responded to the kids.

Lauren Ross: Yeah.

Samantha Foote: So, but yeah. Can you tell us more about the gut-brain connection and how that kind of interacts with ADHD and how that works? [00:03:00]

Dana Kay: Yeah, look, it's one of my favorite topics, so thank you so much for asking that one.

I, I think I wanna start off with a bit of statistics. It, it, it's really, really interesting, but it's, it's estimated that about 54% of American children have been diagnosed, like, with a chronic illness. This was done in 2018, so I can't even imagine what it is in today's terms of 2025. That figure a couple of years before that was only 15%. And so, when I heard that, I was, like, shocked because that increase happened so quickly. One in two have anxiety, asthma, type one, type two diabetes, heart problems, allergies, learning difficulties, hyperactivity, all of these things. One in five have allergies, one in six have developmental da- delays, and one in 32 have autism, and I just read the other day one in 12 boys in California have autism. And we've got to ask ourselves, "Well, why do you think that the rise has occurred so rapidly?" [00:04:00] And I think it very much comes back to the gut, because 80% of the body's entire immune system is within the gut wall, and along with all of the nerve cells and bacteria and things like that. And so, all of our children's health is quite literally connected to everything that goes on in the gut, and our own health, obviously, but, you know, we're here talking about children.

But the amount of families that I've spoken to, I, I sort of... We always do a health history and we ask, "Is there any history of sickness?" Everyone tells me, yeah, they're fit and healthy. But when I sort of presh- press forward, a lot of the children that we work with have been on antibiotics or suffered from diarrhea or constipation, and they're actually surprised to learn that constipation and diarrhea is not healthy or normal. It might be very, very common, but it's a byproduct of an unhealthy gut. And I actually wish I, I took sort of like a, a survey or something of how many families' [00:05:00] kids had been on antibiotics, because what most antibiotics do, they work by killing bacteria or preventing it from growing. They can be lifesaving, but unfortunately, most antibiotics can't distinguish between the good and the bad. And so, what that means is it wreaks havoc on the gut h- gut's healthy bacteria, and you can actually suffer lasting changes to the gut flora as a result of taking antibiotics. So, we've got this large percenting of- percentage of children on these multiple rounds of antibiotics s- and that's in turn compromising the gut. And when 80% of the entire immune system is within the gut wall, it's kind of not a huge surprise to see that the disorders and illnesses are on the rise.

But you're probably going, "Okay, well that, that all makes sense, but how- what's that got to do with ADHD?" But what the gut-brain connection means is that, in essence, our brains are deeply connected to our guts. And when our guts aren't functioning well, our [00:06:00] brains can't function to the best of their capabilities either. 95% of our body's serotonin and 50% of our body's dopamine is produced in the gut, and these are the, the hormones or the neurotransmitter that help us manage emotions, balance our mood, help our cognitive function. And I know when my son was struggling with his ADHD symptoms a lot, emotional dysregulation was one of the biggest things that we struggled with. But people don't realize that an emotional dysregulation can actually start in the gut where that serotonin and the dopamine are being made. But I think that's just one side of it.

Uh, the other side of it is the brain has many areas involved in gut function. One of the main areas is the frontal lobe, and- For those that are just listening and not actually looking at the video, I'm pointing to the middle of my forehead, but that's the area of the brain that talks to the gut via the vagus nerve and, and two-way chemical messages and nerve branches.[00:07:00] And the frontal lobe is responsible for attention, and focus, and executive function, and planning, and organizing, and problem-solving. I mean, do any of those areas sound like ones that are affected by ADHD? Yeah. I mean, I know my son used to struggle with that so much, and if you're familiar with ADHD, which I know you guys are, but with listeners, they're common ADHD symptoms. Children with ADHD often struggle with all of those tasks. And, and because the frontal lobe is in the brain, many people are under the impression it's only the brain that needs care, when in reality it's also the gut that's exacerbating and causing some of those problems. I like to use analogy, analogies sort of to explain it a little bit.

Have you, have you ever felt sort of those butterfly or nauseous feeling in your stomach when you're nervous about something?

Samantha Foote: Yeah.

Dana Kay: Yeah. Maybe it was a first date, or a test, or a conflict with someone. That's a perfect example of the gut-brain connection. Our bodies are perceiving [00:08:00] whatever we're nervous about as a stressful situation, and then our brain will trigger that raw emotion in the gut, resulting in that nauseous feeling or butterflies. So that's the brain talking to the gut.

But the reverse is also true. Our guts talk to our brains as well, and so when we've got a compromised immune system, when we've got a compromised gut or a higher level of bad bacteria than good, that creates inflammation, and that inflammation travels through the vagus nerve and to the brain. And, and once it reaches the brain, it creates those symptoms or exacerbates those symptoms like brain fog, which is the inability to focus, or poor memory, or a whole host of neurobehavioral disorders like ADHD, and anxiety, and depression. So it's like this highway. They, they're constantly talking to each other.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, that is fascinating. I was told the other day that my vagus nerve is overstimulated.

Lauren Ross: [00:09:00] Yeah.

Samantha Foote: Do you know, like, what does that mean? 'Cause they didn't tell me anything about it. They're just like, "Your vagus nerve is overstimulated," because I have, my gag reflex is, like, on, I swear, like, high alert or something. And so I'm just, like, constantly, like, working with that. But you mentioned the vagus nerve about the gut, like that's the highway that the, like, communication goes on. So what does it mean when your vagus nerve is overstimulated?

Dana Kay: Well, it can result from so, so many different things. I mean, if we, if we think about stress in our life, stress impacts the, i- impacts the body. And when we think about parenting and parenting neurodiverse children and things like that also, the, the stress that that puts on our body and our nervous system, we're on high alert. We're in fight or flight. So your vagus nerve is in fight or flight, and it needs to calm down, and so that's causing these raw, real physical [00:10:00] symptoms in your body. And so your body's, like, in this fight or flight mode, and a lot of parents of kids with ADHD or neurobi- developmental disorders are in that constant fight or flight. And so we, we need to calm that down. We need to restore the body. We need to reduce the inflammation, and you can reduce that inflammation in multiple different areas. Vagus nerve stimulation or working on your gut. And so it's really about each individual's biology is different. The one thing for your vagus nerve that's overstimulated may be the different recourse from someone else. So, you know, you really have to look at that bio individual and see what's going on in their body, target that so the body can just, calm down and relax

Samantha Foote: Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

What are some of the things that you can do with families if they want to explore, like, how to help the gut-brain [00:11:00] connection?

Dana Kay: Yeah, and, and as I said, every, every child is a bio-individual.

Samantha Foote: Mm-hmm.

Dana Kay: And so we really look at what is contributing to inflammation, because that inflammation is driving symptoms, is exacerbating symptoms.

And so for my son, one of the biggest things was gluten and an overload of his trash can. And I, I'll explain what that means. I, I, again, I lo- I love analogies, but I've got this trash can here, a little mini trash can for those that are just listening. But we're exposed to so many things in life, whether it be poor diet, whether it be medication, like those antibiotics that we were talking about, whether it's environmental toxins, and that puts a load on our trash can.

And you think about your trash can in your house. Every Monday you take it out onto the side of the road for the garbage truck to, to pick it up and, and empty it But if the garbage truck doesn't come around and you don't take it out to the sidewalk on a Monday, think about all that [00:12:00] trash overflowing. You're gonna have a really, really dirty house, and it'll be gross, and it's not gonna feel good. It's not gonna function well. It's the same with our bodies. If our trash cans are overloaded and we can't take it to the sidewalk, meaning our detoxification pathways are compromised, which is very, very common with kids, their trash can's gonna overload, and if that's all in their body, they're not gonna feel well. Their symptoms are gonna be worse. They're gonna be on fire kind of thing. So we need to work out what's contributing to the load of their trash can. We need to reduce the load on their trash can, and we need to help open up those pathways so they can empty it.

And so really for, for... There's, there's a number of ways that we can do that. We can do that with diet. We can do it with functional lab testing, and so that's really looking, okay, well, let's look at the state of the gut. What's causing that inflammation? What's causing that to go up to the brain? We can look at other functional lab tests that actually [00:13:00] identify other areas of inflammation, and we can target that. We can reduce the load on the body. We can bring in supplements. And so I like... I, I, I think for lots of families, it's sort of this multi-prong approach. You know, and also you, you talk a lot about parenting and parenting in a certain way. That's super important because, you know, when y- mum's stressed, your vagus nerve's gonna be overstimulated, but our whole house is stressed as well, and this is no blame whatsoever. I have totally been there. I'm, I was the, that chronic yeller back in the day. But we look at all the areas in that person's life, in their body, their underlying biology, and we target that. So that can come from multiple different ways.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. I love that you come at it from multiple different ways and don't just say, "This is the answer. This is what's going to help you be all better." Like-

Dana Kay: Yeah.

Samantha Foote: Cause you definitely... D- it's just like [00:14:00] therapy. You have to take a child-centered or person-centered approach-

Lauren Ross: Mm-hmm ...

Samantha Foote: and then you can decide what's the best plan of action for them. Like I don't use the same music in music therapy for all my kids, because some kids, don't like some of the music and it doesn't work for them.

So I love that you take a multi-pronged approach to it.

Dana Kay: I love that you, you just said that as well. And music is so calming to the vagus nerve as well. So the fact that that component is huge, and that's part of it. It's, it's reducing stress. And it's not just stress that we know, it's internal underlying stresses, like all the things that I was talking about, but it's those external stresses as well, and music is so powerful to, uh, to do that.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. There is this company called Unite, and they have a safe and sound protocol that they use where, I was part of [00:15:00] their research, and they played this music. And I ... When I listen to stereotypical, relaxing music, I don't really feel, like, super calm or whatever. Like, I'm just like, "I wanna listen to something else." But they specifically wrote this music to affect the vagus nerve. And I instantly, like, felt more calm and felt more relaxed, and it was wild. I was like, I was not expecting that to happen. But I really want to bring that into my practice to help people who maybe their vagus nerve is overstimulated or whatever. And that way, that they can listen to it and they can also come out of that fight or flight. Because when you're in fight or flight all the time, like, your behavior is gonna be worse because you're always in fight or flight. And so then one little thing happens and you just, like, explode because you're already overwhelmed.

Lauren Ross: Yeah.

Samantha Foote: So yeah, I was just looking into that. It's, like, the polyvagal [00:16:00] theory and all of that stuff, but it just fascinates me. So- Yeah.

Dana Kay: Yeah. Me too.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. So I'm hoping to bring that into my practice very soon, but I have to talk to them about what is the right- program to get, I guess. But anyway, I was going to ask you another question, I just forgot what it was.

Is there anything else that you wanna share about what we've been talking about that parents should know?

Dana Kay: Yeah, look, I, I, I think that if I take it back to the number one thing driving ADHD symptoms, one of the biggest hidden stressors in our kids, right now, contributing to their ADHD symptoms is that inflammation, and we take it back to that, that trash can. Chronic inflammation has become more prevalent over the years, and it's linked to so many, so many diseases and disorders, and it's a biological response triggered by their immune system, triggered by what's going on in their gut. And so, uh, we [00:17:00] really wanna focus on that child and see what's contributing to their inflammation.

Not all inflammation is bad. Inflammation's kind of like the body's first defense system, and it's their attempt at self-protection to begin the healing process. That's for acute inflammation. But the bad inflammation, that's the long-term inflammation that is prolonged for several months or years, that's the chronic inflammation. That's the ugly inflammation, inflammation that we really want to start reducing. And so when the, when the body fails to- eliminate that acute inflammation. And when you're getting that constant in- exposure of low-level things, like in their diet, in their supplements, sorry, in, in medication, in their environment, even in their water. Like some of- the water is so different across the US, and you can even ring up your, your water board and get a report of what's actually in [00:18:00] the water, but that can be contributing to inflammation.

So, really just, I, I don't know, do a, do a stocktake, stocktake of your life. Look at your diet, look at your water supply, look at your environment. What, what, what's going on? What's your cleaning products like? What... You know, are people using spraying pesticides next door in your house? And really take stock. And if you can see that there are a lot of areas that could be contributing to that inflammation, let's just start reducing them. That's the first thing we can do.

But I just wanna remind families, I know at first when you hear this, you're like, "Oh my gosh, what do I do about my diet? What do I do about this? What do I do about this?" But Rome wasn't built in a day, and you don't need to make all of these changes at once. Once you know this information, it's so empowering because you can just start to make small, slow steps to, to keep you moving forward.

And especially around [00:19:00] diet, I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't feel better when they eat better? And so if we can just even start by let's change up diet, I mean bre- sorry, breakfast. Let's, let's, you know, that's the most important meal for our kids when they go off to school, so let's just make breakfast a little bit healthier. And when you're comfortable with that, let's tackle something else. So, I think the most important thing for families is to remember that Rome wasn't built in a day, and you don't need to do everything today.

Samantha Foote: Yes. Yes. Just start small and go from there.

Do you have any resources that you recommend? I know you have some books. Do you have... You can mention those, and then any other things that you recommend for parents?

Dana Kay: Yeah. Thank you for asking, because, and it's just funny that I just said let's start with breakfast. I actually have an ADHD-friendly breakfast guide. I'll give you the link, and, and families can download that. As I said, it is one of the most important meals of the day, and it's a really, really important change. It sets the tone for the entire day, and so the right breakfast can really make [00:20:00] a massive difference in mood and focus and behavior. So I'll, I'll drop that link.

I also have a podcast called The Soaring Child, where I interview experts- just like you, Samantha, and I'd love to have you on- who are navigating this journey in real time and helping their children thrive with ADHD naturally, and music is a, is a big component of that.

I have my international bestselling book. It is called Thriving with ADHD: A Guide to Naturally Reducing ADHD Symptoms in Your Child.

And you can find me on all social platforms, on my website, which is ADHD Thrive Institute.

Samantha Foote: Awesome. Yes, I would love to be on your podcast, and I love that you have that guide for the breakfast.

Do you have any tips on if your child will only eat one thing for breakfast? Is that... Do you have, like, things for that?

Dana Kay: I do. I- picky eating is a common, common scenario. I would say about 70% of the families that we work with [00:21:00] have picky eaters, so you're definitely not alone in that journey. It does, it does, it, it can seem really overwhelming. We use a number of different methods. I don't know if we have a time to dive into it now.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, no. We can have you back on the show to talk about that. I think that would be amazing.

Dana Kay: I can do another- Yes, I can do that.

Samantha Foote: 'Cause that is a... Yeah, we don't have to jump into that right now, but-

Dana Kay: But I just wanna say that there is hope. Don't worry. I, I remember this one family that I worked with. When her son came to work with me, he ate five foods. That was it. He'd already done a year of feeding therapy, he'd already done a year of play therapy to help him overcome this, with no luck. Started working with me in my program, and we did lab testing and everything. He now eats over 200 different foods. So if that family can overcome that with eating five foods, I know that anyone out there can overcome that. I, I was scared at first with this one, but we were able to, to tackle it. So I will just say check his zinc levels as well. [00:22:00] Zinc deficiency can actually contribute to picky eating, but once a zinc deficiency sets in, it then has become this vicious cycle, and you need to break that vicious cycle as well. But we do wanna correct that underlying deficiency if there is one.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, for sure. I love that. Thank you.

And then our last question is, what do you do for fun?

Dana Kay: Okay. Well, I'm originally from Australia, and I told you that I live, I live in sunny Seattle. But my husband and my boys, we love, we love going to go hiking. The Pacific Northwest is so beautiful. It's really, really enjoyable.

And I have to say- I can't believe that I say th- am saying this, 'cause I'm Australian. We don't have American football in Australia, but both my boys play American football, and my oldest also runs track, track and field, and I actually really enjoy watching them do that. I can't believe it. When I first signed up my oldest son, who's now 15, who is thriving, he's [00:23:00] the one that got me on this journey originally. He was on multiple meds, and now he's in high school thriving. He hasn't been on meds for years. But when I first signed him up to American football, I don't think I knew what I was getting myself into. But now he's been doing it for five years, and I, I thoroughly enjoy watching it so there we go.

Samantha Foote: That's awesome. I love it. I love football, and my kids are sick of football. And so they'll be like, "Ugh, you're watching it again?" And I'm like... And so then when the Super Bowl happened, they're like, "This is the last football game, right? There's no more after this?" And I said, "Yeah, this is the last one until August." "Oh, good." I'm like, "You are not my children." Yeah. But anyway, but yeah.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, and we'll definitely have to talk, have you back on the show to talk about picky eating, because I know that is a really hard thing that a lot of families face, so thank you so much.

Dana Kay: You're [00:24:00] welcome. Thanks for having me.

Samantha Foote: Yeah.

Lauren Ross: That was good.

Samantha Foote: Hey, everyone, Samantha here, and I'm thrilled to invite you to join me for something special, the Parenting Power Hour. This is your chance, parents of neurodivergent kids, to bring your questions directly to me and fellow parents in the room. We're here to help you develop actionable plans that really work so you can finally stop the meltdowns and find peace in your home. As a mom to three kids with ADHD and autism, I've seen and been through the challenges, too, so trust me, we'll find solutions together that fit your family. Don't miss out on the Parenting Power Hour. It's a free online monthly gathering every second Thursday of the month from 12:45 to 1:45 Mountain Standard Time. Visit everybrainisdifferent.com to reserve your spot today.

Okay, well she was amazing. I always, am curious about the gut brain connection because I, like I said in the podcast, I have been learning more about polyvagal theory and [00:25:00] about the vagus nerve and how that affects the gut brain connection. I loved what she said about, like, environmental factors and stuff. I just wanted to clarify that I don't think that the rise in autism diagnoses is completely due to environmental factors. I truly believe that it's just, we understand autism better than we did before in the '60s when it was, like, one in 10,000 or something like that, and we have better diagnostic tools. There's more knowledge about neurodivergent diagnoses, and so more people are like, "Oh, maybe my kid could have that," and so they're pushing to get an assessment, where before they would just wait for a doctor to be like, "Oh, I think your kid has autism," where now they're actually going out and saying, "I think my kid has autism because of these reasons that the doctor might not see."

So I think it's a combination of both, but I think the majority of the, [00:26:00] the rise in cases is due to just better diagnostic tools. But yeah, I just had to get that out there. What do you think? What are your opinions?

Lauren Ross: Yeah, I, I, I think that's fair, and, and I think there ... I, I mean, she listed a bunch of other chronic illnesses and stuff like that, and I think that's fair to say that there's an increase in a lot of things, and- Our environment, food, and all of that, like, everything plays a, a role in everything.

But I think specifically for the autism diagnosis, I kind of agree with you that we do have better tools to, to test and things like that. And I think some of that also, especially with adults too, is the social media aspect of more people sharing their experiences and people finding out that, oh, I, I thought I was just, like, a weirdo or whatever. And, like, there's so many more, and they're sort of asking more questions and stuff like that. And so, [00:27:00] yeah. At least that's how I feel about that side.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. But I thought her stuff on the gut-brain connection was fascinating.

Lauren Ross: Yeah. I, I love when we have... And we've had a few people come on and talking about, like, we have to look at the whole person. A- and I love, like, every brain is different. I love that she said every child's biology, everyone's biology is different. Again, it's not a one-size-fits-all, you know? What causes inflammation in one person isn't gonna cause it in another. And so, like she said, you have to take multiple approaches. And so I appreciate that, and it is, it's…Our bodies are just weird and cool and fascinating, and there are still so many things to learn, and how things interact and contribute. And so, very fascinated by the, the gut-brain. I'd like to do some more of my own research obv- obviously. But I think it's very, very interesting, and I [00:28:00] appreciated that Rome wasn’t built in a day. Uh, she's not trying to fix anybody. It's trying to support the biology that, that somebody has, and looking at different things and taking, taking baby steps to, to figure it all out. So, it's just a, another route to look into in, in someone's journey. So, love it.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, for sure. I just think all that is fascinating since I've learned about it, so I'm happy that she could come on.

Lauren Ross: Yeah.

Samantha Foote: And I really want to know her tips for picky eating, so we will definitely have her back on because-

Lauren Ross: Absolutely ...

Samantha Foote: picky eating is, like, awful. But, because, only because, like, I don't care what my kids eat, I just want them to be healthy, you know? And they have some lower levels of things that shouldn't be so low, but they won't eat the food, so it's a problem.

Lauren Ross: Yeah. And I think going into that, like, food probably is playing a role. Like, if you're only eating chicken nuggets, you're [00:29:00] probably lacking on some, some needed stuff. Like, you know- You can’t-

Samantha Foote: Which-

Lauren Ross: just force food down kids' throats.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, which someone should really do a study about why people with autism like chicken nuggets so much. Like, what is it about chicken nuggets that kids and adults with autism like? I just need to know this.

Lauren Ross: Hahaha.

Samantha Foote: But it's another question for another day.

But yeah, thank you everyone who listened. If you would like more information about the gut-brain connection, definitely contact Dana.

And if you would like support for yourself, if you're wondering what the next step is for you and your family, I would love to have you in the neurodivergent parenting community, and you can go out to everybrainisdifferent.com to find out more about that. So everyone have a good week, and we'll see you in the next episode.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. We hope this discussion on neurodiversity has provided you with support, understanding and inspiration. If you're looking for more support, Or you can go to everybrainisdifferent.com and download the ultimate guide to parenting your neurodivergent child.