Ep: 68: Jenny Drennan and Education Therapy

Supporting Neurodivergent Learners with Jenny Drennan

In this episode of the Everybrain is Different podcast, hosts Samantha and Lauren interview Jenny Drennan, a certified educational therapist and founder of We Thrive Learning. Jenny shares her journey from being a teacher in an independent school to establishing her private practice focused on supporting students with ADHD and math/language processing challenges. The discussion covers the specialized one-on-one services We Thrive Learning provides, strategies for understanding and overcoming learning obstacles, the importance of getting curious about a child's difficulties, and ways parents can support their child's educational journey. Jenny also talks about her initiative to offer free services through partnerships with schools, and shares some advice and resources for parents. The episode concludes with Jenny discussing the significance of fostering a child's strengths and promoting their independence.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:50 Jenny's Journey into Educational Therapy

03:21 Understanding Educational Therapy

06:24 Challenges and Strategies for Parents

12:25 Promoting Independence in Children

17:17 Resources and Final Thoughts

19:54 Podcast Wrap-Up and Highlights

More about Jenny Drennan:

Jenny Drennan is a Certified Educational Therapist, Founder of WeThrive Learning, and featured speaker. Her private practice specializes in supporting students with ADHD, and math and language processing challenges. Drawing on best practices and the latest research, WeThrive Learning provides 1-1 tailored support for students and parents globally while considering their complex learning profiles. Her passion, work, and insights have earned her recognition as one of the top 10 most influential educators by MSN, the Association of Educational Therapists, CHADD Groups, and more. She lives in Newport Beach with her pups and husband.

Connect with Jenny:
Website: https://www.wethrivelearning.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wethrivelearning/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wethrivelearning/
Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/wethrivelearning

Connect with Samantha Foote!
Website: www.everybrainisdifferent.com
Email: [email protected]

Transcription:

Welcome to the Everybrain is Different podcast. We're here with Jenny Drennan. She is a certified educational therapist, founder of We Thrive Learning, and featured speaker. Her private practice specializes in supporting students with ADHD and math and language processing challenges. Drawing on best practices and the latest research, We Thrive Learning provides one to one tailored support for students and parents globally while considering their complex learning profiles.

Her passion, work, and insights have earned her recognition as one of the top 10 most influential educators by MSN, the Association of Educational Therapists, CHAD groups, and more. She lives in Newport Beach with her pups and husband. Jenny, we are so excited to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you for having me.

I'm really excited to be here with you, Samantha and Lauren. Yeah. Uh, can you tell us more about how you're involved in the neurodivergent community? Yeah. So I started off as a teacher and as in a independent school. And as a teacher there, um, I started noticing some of my students, despite their best efforts, were just not making the progress we wanted them.

We wanted for them or they were expecting to see. Um, and they were working with an educational therapist at the time, who then I got really close with because we began collaborating on how do we support these kiddos in the classroom? Um, and so then I ventured off and did, you know, started, got my end therapy certificate and started doing this work.

And what we really do is we work one on one with diverse learners from, um, anywhere from fourth grade to grad school. And so we collaborate with the resource teacher, um, learning specialists at their school, parents. Um, Really teach them in a way, you know, cause this school system is, um, unfortunately, right.

It teaches to the masses. And so there's a cookie cutter way of learning. And so not every brain is wired the same. Actually, no brain is paired the same. And so, um, we really try to find ways in which the students, um, to anchor their learning, right. What are the interventions and strategies that we need to teach this child so that they learn, um, because everyone can learn anything.

It's just in the way it's presented to them. Yes, I love that you said that, that anyone can learn, it's just the way it's presented, because I worked with a client, it was like 10 years ago, and their school told his mom that he was uneducatable. He could not learn, and I was like, That is not true. And she was devastated.

She was just like, how, how am I going to teach him if he's not educatable? I was like, well, that's not true. Every child can be educated. You just have to present it differently. Exactly. Yeah. And especially these kiddos, right. We really need to tap into you. What are they interested in? What are they engaged with really focus on?

We're like, we use a strength based approach. So really focusing on their strength. And then thinking about how can we capitalize on these strains, um, to mitigate these other areas that are more challenging for them, right? Because, you know, something may be challenging for them, but in another area, they're absolutely out, you know, superb and outshines everyone else.

And so we really want to think about how do we use these strains to help them overcome these other areas. Yes, I love it. Also, I was going to ask you before, I have never heard of an educational therapist, so can you tell us how you became one? Like, what did you have to do to get that? And then, what exactly do you do?

Yeah, so that and finding that it's not really popular in most states in California, New York, you know, Massachusetts, it is, but it is beginning to spread a bit more, especially after the pandemic and social media, but an educational therapist is really just a stud ed teacher in some ways that really, I mean, it's, it's It's a spider teacher because we know the interventions.

But then in addition to that, we know how to read psych ed reports, neuropsych reports, batteries of assessments. And so we analyze the reports, um, to come up with a treatment plan for the child, right? Then, in addition to that, we are techniques managers for them. So we work in conjunction with therapists, speech pathologists, O.

T. S. Um, anyone who's on pediatricians, anyone who's on the child's team. So that we can collaborate on the interventions and the language that's being shared with for the child, right? The tinkers. Um, so that's two parts of it. We work very closely with, um, schools and parents as well. So, you know, very, um, tracking and measuring progress.

Um, we provide assessments to them. Um, so we create our own reports to be able to advocate for this child and also to show the growth or, um, create new goals for them. So, um, it's, um, it's really just a one on one specialized, um, tailored support. Yeah, that's awesome. Um, do you, do parents pay for this like privately or does insurance or Medicaid or other programs fund it?

How do You would think, right, that, um, it would be funded by insurance. Yeah. So that would impact everyone's mental health and not just we're in a child, the whole family as well, right? But it's not, unfortunately. And so that is something I think that's in the works, but it's not there yet. Um, so it's mostly privately funded.

Um, we thrive. We are an NPA, a non public agency, which means that in California, we can partner with schools to be able to bring this, um, these services to students free of cost. And so that is something we're really proud of that we just achieved in June. So, yeah, that's amazing. I know that that's the thing that I don't like about, um, funding for music therapy.

I feel the same way that we are funded through a special program, through Medicaid, but other than that, parents just have to pay out of pocket and. You know, with all the other costs, like it's difficult for parents to do that, even though it does benefit mental health and everything like that. So yeah.

And only the resourceful parents, right. The ones that really know how to navigate things will get to you using the. What's given. Yeah. Yes, for sure. Yeah. So tell us, um, with parents whose child may be struggling in school, like what are some strategies that you recommend to parents? Yes, that's a really, it's a broad question.

Yes. I would say, um, first we want to start with getting curious. We really want to understand, uh, like what could be underneath the struggle, um, because there's a lot of different ways we could go about this. It could be diet and sleep. It could be, um, you know, stress, right? Stress tolerance, um, drama with friends, um, anything.

It could be a nutrient deficiency, um, and then it could be a learning difference, right? So, um, we really need to dig deep, could be, sometimes we have students that will come to us and they have. Um, reading challenges and through working with them, we develop, Oh, my goodness, they need, we need to send them to an ophthalmologist to get an evaluation.

And then we find out, oh, wow, they need vision therapy. Right. Um, so there's, we need to kind of dig deep into what could be going on for this child. Oftentimes, too, you know, well intentioned parents, we see this a lot, especially with our preteens, teens and young adults, that parents will come and say they're just not motivated, quote unquote, right?

And so we, you know, well intentioned parents, again, are putting a lot of pressure on these kiddos, or it's the school environment, the culture that they're in, that's not supporting this child to really thrive. And so there's so many different avenues you can take, but Um, those are things that when we get a new student, we're always looking, we're, we're, we're checking off all those boxes to see, okay, where should we at least start?

Um, and sometimes we take aim in the wrong way and we got to pivot to a different way, right? Yes. Yeah. I know for my son, he had problems reading since preschool. He was behind since preschool and he knew he was behind. And so he had that anxiety and then he went to, uh, Optometry appointment and they're like, he needs vision therapy.

So then he got vision therapy and then he was evaluated for, um, central auditory processing disorder. And he had a hearing, you know, disorder and then, um, He got, he's not diagnosed with PDA because they don't really diagnose that in the U. S. But his occupational therapist said, I think he has pathological demand avoidance, which he gets so anxious when you place a demand on him.

So when you ask him to read, he'd get really anxious and he'd just shut down. And so to your point of getting curious, it's very important to get curious because it's not always, well, they're just being defiant. They just don't want to do it. Right. That's not true. Exactly. I would say 10 times. It's actually not true, right?

Like, yeah. Yeah. They're little, they want to please their adults. They want to please their teacher, their parents. Um, and so, you know, they're not trying to act this way. It's just that, you know, the demands are exceeding what they're capable of in that moment. Yeah, I always say kids don't do things just to do things.

There's always a reason. And they're generally, the reason is generally not to make you mad. They don't want to make you mad. They don't want you to be upset with them. They do want to do things to make you happy, you know? So. Yeah, I love that you said, get curious. Um, so what does it look like after you get curious?

Like, what can parents expect when they work with you? Okay, so with the learning, um, educational therapist, we would, you know, if, you know, usually they'll come with us and say, they're really struggling in reading, right? So we can either refer them out to get an assessment or we do our own screening tests.

Um, the screening test is not enough to get accommodations at school. So if we're looking, if we really think this child is in need of, uh, interventions at school, and we need to have accommodations for them, then we'll refer them out to an SI guide or to a neuropsych, or a neuropsych report. But if we get, um, if we say, you know, they're struggling with reading, right, we've ruled out auditory processing, we've ruled out, um, vision.

Then we'll start with Orton Gillingham. It's just one structured literacy approach to teaching reading for kids, right? Um, we'll also work with Zolciak's math. So we're going to use base 10 blocks to teach it. So everything that we use is really multi sensory, um, really engaging for the child. We'll, every, Lesson is personalized to that child.

So, you know, if they like, um, learning about NASA, right? Like whatever we're teaching them is going to incorporate, um, topics of high interest for them. Because most of the time our kids are not, they don't have one diagnosis. They tend to have more than one diagnosis, right? Um, so, you know, they're different for a child with ADHD.

It all depends really on age, right? Um, what age is the child, what their learning profile looks like. So we have students who are, you know, 2E, right? Twice exceptional kids where they're off the charts in one, um, subtest and then really low in another subtest. And so it's helping them to, we want to, you, you know, Think about, okay, knowing all that we know about this child, how can we curate the lesson to help them, um, learn what is more challenging for them and tap into the cognitive processes that are much stronger for them.

Um, so it, it's, You know, it's, there's so many ways, but yes, we thrive with you ADHD. So we'll focus a lot on executive function and how we defer ourselves from everyone else's it's truly coaching. So we'll blend motivational interviewing techniques with educational therapy techniques, um, with coaching techniques to really help this child, um, you know, come up with their own goals and progress forward.

And then a lot of the work that we do is our kiddos with ADHD. Is, um, really helping the parents to sort of wean off of, um, giving, directing, providing all the support, um, because, you know, parents, we're used to telling our kids what to do, right? Like, we, we have more Verizon, so we know what's coming down the pipeline for them.

But for, um, them, they don't want to hear it. Right. They don't want to know like, okay, I get it. I need to use a planner. They're not going to use that. And so through coaching, we really try to create lasting change for them. Like what are some strategies that they're coming up with, um, that are not being imposed on them.

Yeah, I think that's really important to, um, not. To do things that are imposed on them, especially for kids who might have PDA and making it their idea so that they don't feel like your demand, you're not telling them what to do. And so then they go into like fight or flight, you know, um, but if you just, you know, let them come up with it, then they're more likely to do it.

And it's not just kids at PDA. I just have been thinking about that a lot. So it's all kids. Like if they come with it, they're more invested in doing something than if you say, well, this is what's best for you. Exactly. They know what's like best for them, quote unquote, right? Um, it's just that. You know, like all of us, they're striving for their autonomy, their independence, and they're developing, it's actually really healthy for them to try to push and, you know, themselves away from us and try to be their own person.

Um, and so when we see that happening, we feel like we're losing control and any loss of control is stress inducing, right? So We're losing control by giving them more space, but that's actually what's most beneficial for them. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard, maybe it was on, someone told this on this podcast. I can't remember where I heard this from, but the kid was a valedictorian and he did great in school and then he went to college and completely fell apart.

He was failing all his classes. He couldn't make it to class on time because when he was in high school, his parents did everything for him except doing the actual work, but they're like, okay, now you have to do this. Now you have to do this. Now you have to do this. And he was very managed. And so, but his parents didn't realize that that's what they were doing.

And so when he gets to college and no one's doing that for him, he just. Um, so I love that you teach kids to be independent and as independent as they can be, you know, um, and just have those realistic expectations for kids, but so they can thrive when they're not with their parents all the time. Correct.

Yeah. And that is so hard for parents, right? Because You know, like we continue to do and do and do the message that we're unconsciously sending them is I don't think you can do by yourself. And so I need to step in and try to rescue you. And so because Bella, the problem solving skills are the skills that they really need to function independently without our support.

Um, so beginning in high school, right, right around eighth grade high school, we're always like, you're sending the emails. You can see parents on the emails, but you're the one that's sending the emails. Um, work, they're beginning to manage their own calendar schedule their own appointments like before a child goes to college, they need to be able to wake up and go to sleep on their own.

Um, had big stress. Um, and they need to, you know, advocate for themselves. be able to use coping strategies. Um, be able to say no. We. Advocate for themselves. So they need to be really self aware. This is what works for me. This is what doesn't work for me. This is what I know I'm good at. This is other areas that are challenging.

Um, and they need to, you know, be advocating with their teachers. So again, in high school. They should be included in the IOP meetings.

They should include the child in them. Anything that's affecting the child should have the child's input in it. Um, and so, you know, ordering their own medication, you know, learning how to take their medication, being diligent about that. So, yeah, it's, it's a big, you know, that's why we say to parents, um, start, we, we start around middle school to start looking down to see what's coming down the pipeline.

And then by senior year, these are the expectations that, you know, they should have developed. If they don't have them yet, they're not ready for college yet. Oh, yeah, and that's okay if they're not ready for college and definitely not pushing them into something that they're not ready for just taking that time to get them ready.

So they are successful when they if if and when they do go to college. Yes, exactly. Yeah, cool. Thank you. That is such I love it. I love it all. Um, what resources do you have or do you recommend for parents? Yes, absolutely. Um, for learning differences, ADHD, um, just like anything you offer to parents maybe as like free resources or yeah, just stuff like that.

We have a free parent Facebook group called parent your ADHD childhood confidence. Um, it says ADHD in the title, but it's really for all neurodivergent kids and quote unquote neurotypical kids. Um, that, you know, it's free, it's on our website. And then we also do, um, that way we do interactive Q and A's with parents, so parents can pop in every week and ask us any questions that they have, um, and we'll also share, like, something that, a question that's come up from a parent that week, or that we've heard students share with us.

So we address, you know, what's troubling for families, you know, for that, that is a fantastic resource. I love it. I'm going to go join the group because I need help with my child. Um, yeah. And where can people find you online? Um, they can do it on follow us at WeThriveLearning. com or on our website, WeThriveLearning.

com. Wait, Instagram, it's just WeThriveLearning, website WeThriveLearning. com. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. And our last question is, what do you do for fun? Oh, I love to eat ice cream. Um, yeah, I love trying all the different flavors when I'm at the ice cream parlor and like, can I try this one, this one, this one, all of that.

I approve. That's awesome. I love. I support this message. Every flavor. Yeah. When I was pregnant, um, I got really bad heartburn and I didn't know what it was because I'd never had heartburn before. But I knew if I ate ice cream. It would go away. That's what I said. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't drink water, but I could eat ice cream.

And so I would have just, I just had ice cream once a day when it got really bad at night. And then I went to the doctor and he was like, you have heartburn. Stop eating ice cream because I was gaining weight. So he was like, you need to stop eating ice cream every day. And I was like, I don't like this.

But yeah, but anyway, but yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We really appreciate your time. No, thank you guys so much for having me. It was really nice. It was really easy to chat with you guys and really, um, it was a fun conversation. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Okay, Lauren, what were the highlights? So many things. Uh, first of all, I've never heard of an educational therapist. Yeah, neither have I. Definitely makes sense, and, um, I, it sounds like it's only a thing in a few states, so I think the rest of us states need to get it together, because I can only imagine how beneficial this service can be for so many people.

Um, but lots of great points. Um, Uh, you mentioned it too. I really love that anyone can learn. It's just how it's presented. And again, that's so true. Adapt and think outside of the box. And, you know, we can make great things happen when we do that. Um, I love again, and I, I preach about it a lot, but focusing on the strengths, capitalizing on the strengths, like, yes, there are things we have to work on.

But let's focus on the strengths and then we can slowly see how we can incorporate these other challenges, um, instead of just focusing on what they can't do. Um, yeah. So, and we're gonna build up confidence and all that when we are focusing on what we can't do. Um, and so I really appreciated that. Um, always the get curious function, the why, um, you have to ask questions and again, think outside of the box, what, what could be the.

The issue that's preventing them from doing this and this or learning this, um, just really digging deep, um, as parents and educators of, to, to find ways to, you know, help them grow and learn, right? Yes. Um, and then, uh, we've been talking about this, um, again, parents, they love their children, they want to protect them and they want the best for them.

But sometimes when we do that, we're too helpful and we're enabling them to not learn and grow. Um, and so something that I talk a lot about in my training is allowing individuals the opportunity to risk failure. Um, that is how we learn and grow. Um, and if we're not allowing our kids to do that, then.

They're not going to know what to do when you are not there. Um, and I think it's really important and I know we don't want to see anyone get hurt or feelings hurt or be down on themselves and all of that, you know, not so fun stuff, but sometimes we, it's just kind of life and we have to allow it to happen so we can teach them how to.

Move on from it, right? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I really love that. And then, um, she talked about it and I think this is really important and I think sometimes we forget, um, but as long as they have any kind of voice, they should have a voice in any support services that they are receiving. They should be included in, in that, in, in as much way as possible.

Um, because yes, it's plans and when we write goals and all of that, we want what's important for them. But we also really want what's important to them. Um, Otherwise, you know, why? What's the point? What's the point? If it doesn't have to be what I like and things like that. And so I really appreciate that, you know, they're incorporating their interests in, in things.

And so if, if they like cooking, we're going to use like cooking terms and stuff when I help you with math and fractions. And you know, how much sugar? Like, that's just kind of how I imagine that in my head. And so I, I love that, that they're doing that because I think we're gonna, kids are gonna obviously be more engaged and more motivated when it's something that they enjoy.

So yes, exactly. I love it. Love it all. Yeah. And even if, um, the kids are non speaking, they can still communicate. They can still have a say in what they do, and I think that's important to remember that just because your kid is non speaking doesn't mean that they don't have opinions, doesn't mean that they can't communicate with you, um, find, find a way to communicate, you know, if that's an AAC device, if that's, um, you know, I guess, iPads are technically considered an AAC device, but different forms of communication, whether formal or informal, you know, whatever made up sign you created that works for you guys go for it, whatever, you know, even if it's pen and paper.

I don't know, there's like so many things like again just think outside of the box and and get really creative. It's, um, We can find out a lot that way, so yeah, yeah, I was really happy that she talked about getting curious because like I know one of my family members, they struggled in school for 10 years, and they just said, the school said she just doesn't want to do it, she's just being defiant, and it turns out that she had it.

Vision processing issues and that was why she read slow. That's why she didn't like going to school and she still got like really good grades in high school and, you know, in the other, like middle school too. And when her visual processing disorder was so severe that the doctor was shocked when he said she should be getting F's and D's.

Like not even sees like that's how severe her vision processing disorder is. And so I think we do not give kids enough benefit, um, because like benefit of the doubt, like they are trying so hard and like she said, 10 out of 10 times, it is not because they just don't want to do it and lack motivation and want to be defiant.

So, they want to do well. And then, I know for some people, like, it just gets too hard, and that's when they just stop trying, because it's so hard. I know my son tried so hard to read. And then, It just got to this point where he's like, I don't even want to do it anymore. I'm never going to be able to read.

What's the point? And then that's when we got like the vision processing and vision therapy and hearing aids and all that. And now he's reading. I'm starting to think and I don't know. I remember getting random checks for things in school, like scoliosis. I remember like that being a thing. And I feel like there should be some sort of basic or free, like, Vision processing tests or auditory tests when kids are entering school.

Yeah. I can just imagine how much of a difference it might make for kids and families to catch those things early instead of the struggle for so long before like they figure out the answer. Because I feel like this comes up a lot. Like these are things. They're more, more coffee than, than not. Like why, why are we doing this in school?

Like. First, second grade. Yeah. Everyone gets, there's a day where everyone just goes through and gets tested. I don't know. I think that should be a thing. That's all. Yeah. Well, they get vision and hearing tests. The problem is with the, with the processing disorder, like my kids. They all have auditory processing disorder, but they're hearing fantastic.

They just don't process it, you know? And with the vision processing, like my son can see 20, 20 vision. He has 20, 20 vision, but the processing is kind of computing what he's looking at. Yeah. He can't understand what he's looking at. And so, yeah, I just, so then people will be like, well, he can see fine. He can hear fine.

What's the issue? And I'm like, it's what's going on in the brain. It's not fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, but anyway, so thank you all for listening this week. We really appreciate you downloading the episodes, giving us reviews. Um, I've gotten some really good feedback on the show this week, so thanks for sending our, your feedback and yeah, let us know what you want to hear, what, who do you want us to interview?

If you have a guest that you want us to interview, if you have a topic you want us to talk about, let us know. Yeah. We'll see you next week.