135- Jason Heffler and Supporting Kids Who Stutter

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Welcome to Every Brain is Different, the podcast where we celebrate the unique world of neurodiversity. We are your hosts, Samantha Foote, a neurodivergent, Board Certified Music Therapist and mom to three kids of ADHD and autism. And Lauren Ross, an ally to the neurodivergent community with over 10 years of experience supporting children and adults with autism.

This podcast is for parents like you. Navigating the world of neurodiversity with love and compassion. Together we'll create a world where every brain is valued and celebrated. We're excited to embark on this enlightening journey with you.

Transcript:

Samantha Foote: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Every Brain Is Different podcast. It is Samantha and Lauren here, and today we have Jason Heffler with us. Jason is an author whose book Tongue Tied, helps young readers overcome speech disorders and fears around speaking. Drawing from his own childhood experience growing up with and getting bullied for a stutter, he writes uplifting tales that build [00:01:00] confidence in kids who lack self-esteem.

Welcome to the show, Jason. I'm so excited to have you here and speaking of speech problems, I just said Jason really weird. But anyway. So can you tell us a little bit more about your life and how you're involved in the neurodivergent community and all of that?

Jason Heffler: Yeah. Well first off, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. It means a lot, but yeah, so basically my story is I grew up with a stutter, I still have it. It was much worse when I was a kid, but no less stressful. So, yeah, I, I, I wrote this book because I, I didn't really, I didn't really have a lot of resources back then, especially books, so I just, I kind of wrote the book I needed, um, as a kid to understand what was going on and what I could do to overcome it.

Samantha Foote: Awesome. [00:02:00] I love that people like you are writing books like this because we've had so a couple other people on that are just writing about their experiences as children and I think it's super important for children now to have those books so that they can relate to it. Like my son has a congenital cataract and we got him a book where he, where it talks about that. And then that Elio movie that came out, he, Elio was wearing a patch and we didn't know why he was wearing a patch, but my son had to wear a patch like all growing up and he was like, “he's wearing a patch!” and he was so excited. So yeah. I love that you are giving kids something that they can look at and, you know, kind of relate to and not feel so alone, so.

Jason Heffler: Well yeah.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about the book? Like obviously it's, you know, it's about overcoming like speech issues that you had and stuff, but like more about it.

Jason Heffler: [00:03:00] Yeah, so it's, it's centered around this main character who's a chameleon, and she, she, she basically her name is Cadence and she, she has a speech impediment and she trips over her tongue when she tries to talk. And when that happens, she can camouflage into the forest because she's scared about how the other animals will treat her. Without giving away too much, she has these encounters in the book with, with a bully, a frog, and she needs this best friend who's a cricket that helps her kind of, kind of moving up and through these encounters she, she realizes that people with speech impediments can still live a fulfilling and happy life and still achieve the same things that anyone else can.

Samantha Foote: I love it. [00:04:00] So can you tell us for parents who are listening, if their child has a speech impediment or a stutter or it's just any of that, how can they help support their kid and helping them feel confident and not so, I don't know, just more confident, I guess?

Jason Heffler: Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of ways I- if I were to name a couple basically like children who stutter, they have this confident voice in their head that they're, it's legitimately stuck in their throat. They can't get it out. So if you just acknowledge that, that it is trapped in there and it, if you help them find that you can actually find yourself as well.

One thing is, is teaching parents how to praise the actual- the more like the, like the effort of speaking instead of the actual fluency, you know, focusing on what they say and not how they say it. [00:05:00] Resisting the urge to finish the sentences or rush them, you know, let them take their time. Let them feel comfortable, you know. By- by being patient in the actual dialogue, you can show them that their words matter no matter how they come out, no matter how fragmented. And then they get that sense of security that will strengthen their communication in the outside world. That's the big one.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, and we say that a lot on this podcast, like even outside of, you know, speaking, if they're doing chores and they don't do the chore quite like you want it, like focus on the effort and focus on what they did rather than, “oh you didn't do that right.” You know, so I love that. Definitely focusing on effort over fluency because obviously the kids are trying, they're not [00:06:00] like doing it, just not being able to speak like they want to.

Jason Heffler: Exactly.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. And then you also brought up that, that it's important to show kids that speech issues don't need to be fixed. How can parents really show that to their kid?

Jason Heffler: Good question. Honestly, like I said, just patience is the biggest thing. If you're, if, if, if you're a big tree that stands tall and doesn't fold, like, doesn't get frustrated, and they know they, they have that sense of security, they'll know.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. I like what you said in previous conversations that we had, you said, “instead of chasing a cure, it's liberating to envo- embrace the truth that your voice exactly as it is, can carry you through a life filled with all the same possibilities as others.” [00:07:00] And I love that. I just wanted to bring that up because you said that in previously, and so I love that line that you said. So yeah.

Can you tell us about, I know sometimes with people who stutter, they sometimes get stuck and there's some strategies that you can use to get unstuck. Do you have any of those for parents or what, what do you recommend to parents who kids do that?

Jason Heffler: Yeah. Yeah. So one of them of, or the biggest one in my head, it's called Cognitive Reframing. So basically if you're, you know, if, for example, with, with, with my book. If you're reading it, the parents can discuss and say stuff like, how do you think this character felt when they were going through this? Or, what helps them feel brave? So, so [00:08:00] just re-framing their experiences, not as the experiences themselves, but how they made them feel, how they overcame it, like the nuances of it. Focusing on the those instead of the outcomes.

Samantha Foote: Love it. I love, yeah. And then also you can be teaching kids like social skills, understanding themselves, understanding, you know, like their feelings because I know a lot of kids, like they feel a lot of feelings, but they don't know what they mean. And so.

Jason Heffler: Exactly.

Samantha Foote: Uh, yeah. And so I think that's super important. And then what? Sorry.

Jason Heffler: I was about to say, and then it like, do, doing that, what you just explained, it kind of shows the kids that their speech, it isn't, it's not a barrier, but it's more of a challenge that they can actually navigate and, and, and they can over comment it, it helps build resilience.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:00] And then giving them the confidence that, you know, just 'cause they don't speak like other people, they're still, they can still accomplish great things, you know, or do whatever they want, achieve their goals.

Jason Heffler: Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Foote: I love that.

Jason Heffler: And, and, and then another one that can help, this kind of helped me when, when, when I was kid is actually looking into a mirror and speaking. Because stutterers, they, when their words come out and they know they're stuttering, every stutterer has like these ticks that they do, that they, it helps them get the words out or, or at least they get think it does. Like me, I tap my foot and it kind of helps you get going. So if you look in the mirror and you talk and you see those ticky things that they do. It kind of makes you more cognizant of them and it, you [00:10:00] know, it makes you more aware in social situations like, maybe I should stop doing this.

Samantha Foote: Oh, awesome. Yeah. That's a good tip. Have you just, 'cause I'm a music therapist and I know that music therapists work with people who stutter. Have you ever used music in any way to help you like with that?

Jason Heffler: I don't think you know much of my background beside the author stuff, so I'll, I'll-

Samantha Foote: No, I don't.

Jason Heffler: The answer is yes. So my nine to five, my main job is, I'm the managing editor of a major dance music publication. It's called edm.com. It's like the, the nation's largest dance music site. So, I run the site. I manage all the writers. I write a couple articles a day. Prior to [00:11:00] that, I was a DJ and I, I spun at some major festivals and all the big clubs in LA and so yeah, I use music my entire life to express myself and when I was spinning, I would actually get on the mic, in front of legit like the thousand people, and when I would speak on might, the stutter would just, would just go away.

Samantha Foote: That's awesome. I love it. I'm so glad I asked you that. That makes me really happy.

So let's talk a little bit more about expressing yourself through music when maybe, was it just easier to express yourself through music when speech was a barrier to maybe expressing yourself or how did you think about that?

Jason Heffler: Definitely, it was a vehicle, like I said, the stu, this stutter is much worse when I was a kid and like on like through [00:12:00] college as well. So when I started making music, I would use little lyrics as a vehicle to express what I could not just say, and then I would have to, you know, because, because I was a producer, I, I wanted a mogul, so then I would team up with, with singers to sing the lyrics I wrote, and that's how I got everything out there.

Samantha Foote: I love it. I say that a lot. But I do. It's awesome. That makes me really happy because I talk a lot about how in music, like if you have, like music therapy works with communication, like in that realm a lot, and people who have a hard time communicating for one reason or another, whether people don't understand them or they're just not, you know, different neuro types or whatever. Music can be that vehicle to express yourself when you don't feel [00:13:00] comfortable using other things to express yourself and yeah, that's just awesome.

Okay, so you talk about being bullied and stuff as a kid, what would you say to parents whose child might be being bullied? Like how can they help them? How can they help them stand up for themselves? Or just what would you recommend to parents with that?

Jason Heffler: Yeah, so first of off, I, I, I thought I knew this later in life, but not back in the day. I realized that like, bullying and cruelty, they come from ignorance, not, you know, malice. When you get bullied, the kid just doesn't know what's going on with you, and the odds are that they're going through something much worse than you. So I always say it's, it's, it's about compassion and, and empathy. Just walk away. [00:14:00] Unless the bully gets aggressive, then you gotta fight and if that's what it takes, you gotta pop 'em in in the chin if you have to. But first it's about empathy. Walk away.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yes. That's what I tell my kids. If someone like, don't just hit someone. And don't push or be violent with someone. But if someone is like literally beating you up, you have to defend yourself, so. Yeah.

Lauren Ross: But make sure you're not the first one to throw the punch.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure.

Jason Heffler: Don’t start them.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, yeah. But definitely start with that empathy. Understand that maybe something is going on with them that, like you said, that's worse than what's going on with you.

Is there any like language that you would use to teach [00:15:00] kids that, because I know empathy is like, kind of hard for kids to understand. Do you have any suggestions for that?

Jason Heffler: That's a good question that I've never been asked. Yeah. No, I would, I think I would just say, look, I'm sorry I'm, I don't know what's going on. I'm really sorry about whatever it is, but this isn't about me. It's about you. I hope everything's okay and at home.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then how, what do you recommend for if a kid just wants to tell people like, “Hey, I stutter. It's okay. This is just me.”

Jason Heffler: Oh yeah.

Samantha Foote: You know?

Jason Heffler: Acknowledgement is everything. It's everything. And I'm so happy that you asked that. 'cause that changed my life. No joke. I, I would, I, I hid behind my stutter forever. And then once I [00:16:00] graduated college and I needed to find a job and, you know, become an adult, I was stuttering my way through job interviews and I realized that these employers didn't think that I could be fluent on the job. So I was getting rejected over and over again, and I was at my end and I, I was like, I'm just gonna acknowledge it and see what happens. So I had a job interview and right off the rip I I, I was like, “look, I just stutter and it's obvious. I'm aware of it. It, it in no way affects the way I communicate it. It doesn't affect the work ethic, I promise you. It's just the way I am. And if anything, it makes me stronger because I, I've had thick skin from growing up with this”. And, instantly I saw that they were thankful and grateful and for my honesty, and they saw, [00:17:00] you know, those qualities like, like candor, that they valued in the role. And then I, I, I got hired.

So acknowledging it is everything is, and especially when with friends as well, if you meet a new friend and, and you say, “oh look, I stutter, this is the way I am. I could be your best friend.” You know, I, I'm, it's not like I'm different. If that person is down, they'll be your best friend. If they're not, then you don't want them in your life anyway, and you won't know that until you acknowledge.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. For sure. And then I think just acknowledging it and saying, “Hey, I have this, and it doesn't change who I am. It's just who I am. It's part of me.” I think it changes something in your brain too, like the way you see yourself where you said you hid behind your [00:18:00] stutter, and then once you just acknowledged it, I feel like the way you spoke, it made you more confident in yourself. Just saying, “I have a stutter. It's okay. I'm still gonna be able to do everything that I wanna do.”

Jason Heffler: Yeah, and like exactly, and when you own it, when you own your struggles, i's, it's not weakness. It's, it's a step toward regaining your vo, your voice. And like every, every encounter and every interaction like that, that you have, it builds your strength up. No, no matter how messy they are. You know what I mean?

Samantha Foote: Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. I fully agree with that. I notice like I have ADHD and OCD, and when I tell people like, “Hey, I have a lot of anxiety,” they're much more understanding than if before when I didn't tell 'em, and I would just have meltdowns because at the anxiety would just build up, build up buildup, and then I'd just start crying.

Jason Heffler: Oh [00:19:00] man.

Samantha Foote: Like- I noticed that people were much more understanding, and I'm not saying like just go out and be like, “I have anxiety, I have adhd.” like to just random people, but like people you know that are close to you or that you have to interact with, it just helps them understand that, hey, you have this. You're still like, the same person, you just have to deal with this. And so I tell 'em like, “if you see me doing this, it means I'm having a lot of anxiety, so just give me a minute.” You know? And so, yeah, I think that's important. And then me just acknowledging it, being like, well, this is something I have, but it doesn't define me. Then that kind of helps me have more confidence too. So, yeah. Is there- Where can people find your book or find more out about you and all of that?

Jason Heffler: It's, it's on Amazon. If you just type in tongue, uh, “Tongue Tied [00:20:00] book”, it should be a top of Amazon. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it's also on Barnes and Nobles site. So I think everything is quicker there.

Samantha Foote: Okay. Yeah, we'll have a link for it in the show notes. So if people want to get it, they can go to the show notes and get that link. And is there anything else that you would want to tell parents or tell people with a stutter or speech impediment or anything like that?

Jason Heffler: Yeah, it, it, it gets better. That's it. I I mean it like, it, it is rough when we’re young, I mean, you just, every time you open your mouth, it's, you know, it's just, it's ruthless and it's vicious and kids don't know how bad it is, but you'll get that fixed skin the older you get and just gotta be patient and empowered through it and once you're older, you will surround yourself with people who get it and love [00:21:00] you, and it'll, it'll, it'll all be good.

Samantha Foote: Awesome. Thank you. And then do you have any resources, obviously, other than your book, that you would recommend to people?

Jason Heffler: Yeah, this Stuttering Foundation is amazing, amazing. They have this, this huge network of parents, these stutterers with doctors and books and it's amazing. The Stuttering Foundation is like the number one most helpful.

Samantha Foote: Awesome. And we'll have a link for that in the show notes too, if people wanna check that out. Thank you.

Our last question is, what do you do for fun?

Jason Heffler: For fun?

Samantha Foote: Yeah.

Jason Heffler: Well, I love fantasy football.

Samantha Foote: Nice.

Jason Heffler: As, as lame, as lame as that sounds, I'm, I'm addicted to it. And then just recreational sports pickleball.

Samantha Foote: Pickleball! Yes!

Jason Heffler: Yeah. Pickleball is the most addicting thing ever. I'm obsessed with that. [00:22:00] Yeah.

Samantha Foote: I love it. Yeah, I love it. I had such an embarrassing moment playing pickleball. I was like ready to smash it, and you know how you can't go up in front of that line and hit a ball? I totally forgot about that, and I was like, boom. I was like, “in your face!” And they're like, “You just broke the rules.” And I'm like, cool, cool, cool. So anyway, good times.

Jason Heffler: You and I would never be partners, I would get so angry at that. My wife and I, she does that all the time. And I-

Samantha Foote: That's hilarious. Yeah. Well thank you for coming on the show. We really appreciate it and we appreciate your time and all the great things that you shared. So.

Jason Heffler: Thanks for having me. It means a lot.

Lauren Ross: Great.

Samantha Foote: Well, Lauren, I like him. I say that about all our guests, but I really liked what he had to share. What did you think?

Lauren Ross: I agree. I love his [00:23:00] energy. I love the concept of his book and going back, like representation matters. I mean, your son was proof with the movie and this book is probably gonna help a lot of kiddos, so I really love that.

Samantha Foote: Another representation thing, I was doing music therapy with this girl and she sometimes uses a wheelchair because she just needs a wheelchair sometimes, and there was a wheelchair user in the book and she got so excited. She's like, “She's in a wheelchair! I use a wheelchair! She's in a wheelchair!” She was so excited. So yes, representation matters like-

Lauren Ross: It does!

Samantha Foote: And kids get so excited when they see other people like them and adults too, you know? So, anyway, that, that’s awesome.

Lauren Ross: I, I wanna add onto that. A long time ago, I was at the zoo with my friend and her twin sister, who is deaf and she has a hearing aid. We were walking around the zoo and this little girl just like, just like grabbing her parents was so [00:24:00] excited and kept pointing at my friends sister, and it just like pointing at the hearing aid. She was stoked just to see someone else with it. And so I, it's so important and, and so beneficial for, for kiddos. So I love that. I love the just acknowledgement, like acknowledging it. Not even very, like for yourself, but for also like other people. I think it, it takes away so much uncertainty on both parties. If you're just kind of, “Hey, I know this is a thing, this is a thing I have.” Then the other people aren't, you know, worried or being judgy or, you know, no matter what the, the issue might be. And so I think that's really important. But I also think it helps open the conversation more and more and more of, there are so many people that are masking and hiding behind these struggles and, and [00:25:00] different types of struggles. And I think when we can be honest and, and share, I mean not just everything willy-nilly- As needed and stuff to, to function. I think that's what's gonna help society change as a whole. Is by having these conversations and it's gonna make people more. More aware and more inclusive and and things like that. But we have to have the conversations.

And then just one last thing that he said that I really loved is he was, say it, it's not barriers or challenges that they can navigate. Like just put in the work, you get the skills, coping skills, all of it. Like you can do anything you wanna do.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. And I think when he said. Just owning it, going back to that. Mm-hmm. If someone is bullying you and you own it and say, “yeah, I am like that.” it kind of takes away their power to [00:26:00] where they, it's not fun for them anymore because you're like, “yeah, I have that. I do that. You're right.” You know, and it kind of. Let's esteem out of their sales because they're not getting the reaction that they want. And like he said, usually people who are bullying are going through something hard too. And so that's why they're doing that, to make themselves feel better and make themselves feel like they're not actually doing what you know, going through what they're going through. And so if they, seeing you like squirm or be upset or whatever, if you just come back with, “yeah, I stutter. It's, it's who I am.” Not, not who I am, but you know what I mean? Yeah. “It's, it's part of me.” That's fine. Yeah. It kind of takes that away and takes their power away. And so I really like that too.

I wish I would've taught my kids to say that 'cause they've been bullied and I just wish I [00:27:00] would've been like, yeah, I- like my son. “Yeah. I wear a patch. It's helping me see better. Okay. What's your problem?” You know.

Lauren Ross: Just like this person wears glasses.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Ross: This person has this. This, this reminds me, I don't know if you've seen it, but the movie Eight Mile with Eminem when they're doing a rap battle and he basically just kind of acknowledges all that he is. 'cause then the other guy can't do a dis about it 'cause he is just acknowledging everything and he's like totally thrown off. He is like, what do I do now? What do I do now? You just acknowledge like all the things that I see as your faults. And so it just reminded me of that.

Samantha Foote: I have not seen that movie, but this song, the song from that movie I play on a daily basis and it like, it gets me ready for the day. “Yes, I can do this!” you know? Love it. So I can't remember, what's the name of that song [00:28:00] Anyway, I listen to it every day and I love it. So if you need a good pump up song. Maybe get the edited version if you don't like the F word. I don't like the F word, so I get the edited version. But anyway, yeah.

Thank you all for listening this week. Like we said, if you want to get the book, the link will be in the show notes and please go support Jason. He wrote a great book. I love it. So yeah, and then we will see you all next week.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. We hope this discussion on neurodiversity has provided you with support, understanding and inspiration. If you're looking for more support, Or you can go to everybrainisdifferent.com and download the ultimate guide to parenting your neurodivergent child.