69 - Jeaneen Tang and Play Dumb & Sabotage 18/11/24

Jeaneen Tang, speech-language pathologist and mother of a special needs child. Along with her over 20 years of experience with working go with children and adults with neurodiversity, she also has an 11 year old son who is neurodivergent. He suffered a traumatic brain injury and stroke at 13 months old. Her personal and professional relationship with this amazing population has forever changed her. She hopes to change their world too. She recently published her first book called PLAY DUMB & SABOTAGE. Through preventative training, she believes we can achieve success and raise confident communicators.

Episode Highlights:

• Playful Communication for Young Kids -  Why “playing dumb” is a powerful strategy to encourage communication and problem-solving in young kids.

• Practical Tips for Parents - Easy techniques from Play Dumb and Sabotage that parents can use daily to prompt kids to express themselves.

• Creating a Positive Environment for Communication - How humor and playful “sabotage” lower pressure and make it easier for kids to engage in conversation.

• Quick Start Guide for Parents - Steps to implement these strategies right away, with tips for adapting them to different developmental stages.

Jeaneen’s playful approach helps kids open up, speak up, and build confidence through fun communication strategies.

Website: www.playdumbandsabotage.com

Instagram: www.instagram.com/playdumbandsabotage

Connect with Samantha Foote!

Website: www.everybrainisdifferent.com

Email: [email protected]

TRANSCRIPTION

Welcome to the EveryBrain is Different podcast. We're here with Janine Tang. She is a speech language pathologist and mother of a special needs child. Along with her over 20 years of experience with working with children and adults with neurodiversity, she also has an 11 year old son who is neurodivergent.

He suffered a traumatic brain injury and stroke at 13 months old. Her personal and professional relationship with this amazing population has forever changed her. She hopes to change their world too. She recently published her first book called Play Dumb and Sabotage. It addresses early language development and is meant to be helpful for parents, caregivers, and educators to work with young children and hopefully decrease the number of children needing speech therapy.

Through preventative training, she believes We can achieve success and raise confident communicators. Thank you so much for being on the show. We are so excited to have you. Thanks for having me. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you're involved in the neurodivergent community? Yeah. So, you know, my son has, um, had a brain injury and stroke when he was 13 months old.

So I, I kind of deal with it every day and also in my line of work as a speech therapist, you know, I've been doing it for 23 years now, and I've worked with, you know, so many children with. Uh, that fall under the autism spectrum disorder that may have other things like cerebral palsy or down syndrome or anything else that make under that gamut.

Right. And I also work with adults a couple of days a week at a hospital, and we have everything from strokes to Parkinson's to MS to, you know, any dementia things that might also pop up as well. And so it's, it's such a great. A population to work with because it really makes you problem solve and it makes you think outside the box, right?

You can't fit everybody into the same box and, and same as therapy strategies and such. So I love it. It's fun. Yeah, that's awesome. I almost became a speech language pathologist and I was like, Oh, it'd be so fun to use music with speech therapy, you know, but, um, I did not go that route. I got married instead and then things happened and I didn't go that route, but I've always loved what speech therapists do.

And my speech there, my kids have been involved in speech therapy for all three of them went to speech therapy. And my youngest is still in speech therapy. And so I just really love what you do and helping young kids. And while I've experienced it with young kids, um, just helping them become better communicators, because I know when they can't communicate, then they have more like Problematic behaviors, you know, yeah, you see the you see the hit the hitting and the biting and yeah Pushing and all this physical stuff and and then the teachers are like, oh, you know, this kid is a problem behavior problems I'm like, no, they just can't express what they need to express and yeah, you know Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm, yeah, I really like music therapy as well, and I love to add in music. I'm always doing something to a nursery rhyme tune or, uh, some kind of sing songiness. So I think your, your line of work in music therapy is amazing as well. Oh, thank you. So, can you give us a little more information on how can we help our young communicators who maybe have some issues with communicating?

So, let's start with, uh, maybe kids who are non speaking. Like, they're two, three years old, non speaking. How would you suggest that we work with them? Yes, absolutely. You can offer them choices rather than, you guess, no questions or open ended questions, like, what do you want? You know, if you want to see if what toy they want to play with, do you want to play with the ball or the bear and holding things up so they can see the vocabulary?

And they can also hold it about shoulder width apart, at least, so they can, you can see where they're looking at, because if you're holding things too close together, then you don't know what they're looking at, and you can't give them, you can't speak for them, in a sense, you know, if a child is nonverbal, but they look at the bear.

Then I go, Oh, bear. I want to play with the bear too. Let's play with the bear. The bear has soft fur and you can start to do a little bit more language bombardment and, and expose them to different vocabulary terms that around that surround that particular toy. Yes. Thank you. I love the, like holding it far enough apart so they can look because I do this too.

Like I'll hold things close together and then. You can't tell where they're looking. And you're like, well, what do you want? You're like, which one do you want? And you're like, I don't know, but if you hold it far enough apart, then at least they'll look, you know, or they'll try to grab it. And then you can, um, you know, then you can, uh, talk about the one that they were looking at or grabbing.

Some kids will try to grab both and then they're like, wait, wait, hold on. And then you kind of have to decide which one, you know, that they're trying to go for more. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about how we might need to communicate differently with neurodivergent, um, kids? And I say this because I saw a video the other day.

And I can't remember the creator, but she was saying that so often we play with kids or who are neurodivergent, we play with them as if they're neurotypical and that's not how they play. So we might be like, Oh, what are you doing? What is that doing? What is that doing? You're like, what is that? Let's say they're playing with farm animals and we say, What does the cow say?

What does the horse say? What is, where is the cow going? What is the farmer doing? And it just like bombards their system and that's not how we should play with them. So do you have any advice on how we can play with our neurodivergent kids? Yeah. So maybe talking, maybe making more comments rather than asking questions.

So if I'm playing with like a farm set or something, I might say, Oh, the horse, this is the horse, the horse is Brown. The horse wants to eat hay. And then you talk about another animal. And then. You know, sometimes I'll ask absurd questions. I'll be like, does a horse say meow? And then that kind of like tunes them into like, what did you just talk about?

Like, what did you just say that wasn't correct? You know, so that kind of gets them to engage a little bit more, uh, if they are paying attention, obviously. And then, um, instead of asking open ended questions, you can ask a yes, no question. So like the, there's a horse say meow, or is this sheep black? And when it could be white, you know, or is the, is the cat purple?

So I like to ask absurd questions to kind of get that yes, no response, um, as a question from the kids, this kind of makes them think like, oh, wait, that's not correct. This is what it should be and hopefully build that rapport. So the child is more engaged and is more likely to. Um, you know, protest about, no, that cat is not purple that, that horse doesn't say meow.

Um, so kind of get them engaged and being silly. I think being silly with all kids is really important, but being silly with like neuro divergent kids, because you know, a lot of my kids, um, on the autism spectrum disorder, if I say like, Oh, if I put something on my head, I'm like, Oh, look, the cow is a hat.

And then they're like, Oh wait, that's stupid. You know, then they start laughing and they start. Building that rapport and engaging and they might do something that's silly. So it kind of builds this back and forth ness of how to play and takes away from you just asking like, Oh, so what, what goes in the barn?

What is the, what is the farmer going to do? Cause those are very open ended questions and they might not be able to answer them. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Um, the video that I was watching just said they get like overwhelmed and then they tune out because they're not, they're not engaging with you because they're too overwhelmed to do that.

So those are, those are some great suggestions. Um, okay. So how do we mindfully anticipate the needs of children and create opportunities to practice language? Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, absolutely. So that's a subtitle of my book, right? The title is Play Dumb and Sabotage, and I want people to think about how we over anticipate as parents, as caregivers, even as educators, right?

So we think about a good parent as somebody who knows when the child is hungry, wants to make sure the child is dry, make sure the child is taken care of. All of these needs are taken care of. And as they get older, you know, we become these helicopter parents where, Oh, okay. Don't forget your jacket or don't forget your bag or don't forget this and that.

And we do all these things for our kids when we're over anticipating and not letting them explore their environment by themselves and kind of understand that, Oh, if I do something, this will happen. So this cause and effect, so playing dumb is so the mindful under anticipation is knowing what the child might need or want, but drilling that back and allowing that child to interact naturally with their environment and then.

Sabotage is about, you know, creating these opportunities, whether it be during snack time, you know, giving a just a couple pieces of goldfish rather than a whole bowl, or, you know, and then having the child be able to ask for more, indicate that they want more, maybe just giving a little bit of milk or juice so they can ask for more, um, maybe having their favorite toy in sight, but just out of reach, so they need to indicate that they want that toy, or also like wind up toys are great because you can wind it up You can let the toy go and it'll do its little action and then it'll stop.

And in order for them to have it done again, they need to indicate that they want more, you know, or even bubbles are great because you'll blow the bubbles and then they pop. And if they want more, they have to ask again. So it's all these little opportunities. It's nothing destructive. You know, my mom was like, no, don't use sabotage.

I'm like, no, it's the perfect word because. And it's playfully sabotaging because we're creating these opportunities for them to practice and just like sports, you know, if we're going to shoot a free throw, we can't just shoot it every now and then we need to practice it until we get really good at it.

Yes. That is so good. Cause if you're over anticipating, then they're not going to have to use their language to ask for things and then they can't practice their language. So what do you think if a child, like Say you give them a few crackers and then they need to say more and Do you model it for them or do you just wait for them?

And then what if you model it and then they just sit there and don't do anything like yeah How do you do the prompting in that? Absolutely. So there's this whole spectrum of ability, right? These kids are unable to do anything On one side, and then they're, they're able to do things masterfully on the other side.

And then there's this whole gray area of, is a child able to do, what are they able to do and how much help do they need? So you really have to judge the child on where they are particularly. And a lot of kids who are, don't know science, they're gonna, they might need even hand over hand. And if you have a, a parent or another person, you can do what they call, as a silent prompter from behind.

So they can go from behind and do a prompt hand over hand with them. But if it's just me and the child, I might show them the sign for more. If they can't do it, I will hand over hand, do the sign for more with them or the sign for please, you know, on their chest. Um, until they're able to practice that enough that they can do it on their own.

Uh, and sometimes when they get a little bit When they start to progress, and I know that they can do the sign or they can say even more, I'm going to wait a little bit longer. And if they don't, if they aren't able to produce the sign or say the word, I might get them a cue. Like I might do it really quickly, a sign for more, or I might say, um, or I might just play dumb and be like, did you want something?

What did you want? Or I might shake the bowl or whatever, you know, tempt them. To make noise with the item and then still keep it away from them so they can, you know, they might reach for it. I'm like, Nope. Did you want something? And then I wait for them to see if they will do their sign or say their sound or say a word.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Um, and hand over hand just for people who might not know means you physically put your hands over their hands and help them do it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Um, I had been accused of jargon speaking, so I would like to just, you know, explain what things mean. Um, so I have heard that you, you know, you want to do the queuing, you want to do the prompting, you want to do all that, but you don't want to say save more because then that is causing like, that might cause anxiety, like performance anxiety.

Can you tell us a little more about that? Yeah, I'm not sure about the whole anxiety, but you don't want to do too much prompting, too much cuing. So you don't want to direct them because other sometimes kids will wait to be directed. You know, they'll, they'll wait until you tell them, okay, do this, say this, and then they'll do it.

Um, so I think by doing less verbal prompts along with the signs and everything will help to build a little more confidence for the child. Cause then they'll be able to. Do the sign, and maybe it is a little anxiety where they just aren't sure if they're doing it correctly, or they're saying it correctly.

But I think by giving less prompting cues, as little as you need to, right? It will let the child be more independent and be more successful over time. Yes. And we were talking to somebody else. I can't remember who it was, but they just said, wait, just be patient and wait, wait longer than you think. And then cue them again, you know, if they don't do it, but she said, I think she said to count to like 10 or 15 because you think, do you think we're like, people think they're waiting a long time for someone to respond that you might only be giving that person like three seconds.

And so what, like, what is your take on that? Yeah, I, definitely, it's really important to be patient and be, take everything a little bit slower. So when I'm speaking with a child, I am speaking a little bit slower. And so in our interaction too, I'm not rushing. I don't think there's any need to rush our interaction at all.

So I will do a pause and whether it be five to 10 seconds, I'm not sure about 15 seconds. It depends on the child, right? Some kids respond right away. Some kids take a while. You know, my son is going to be 12 this month and I'll ask him a question. He doesn't respond. And I asked him again, he goes, I'm thinking mom.

I'm like, Oh, okay. I need to remember even with my own child that he might take a little bit longer because he is neurodivergent and. You know, as they get older, the questions get more difficult, you know, about maybe his day or asking him his opinion about something. And sometimes I'm not sure if he's just not paying attention or he just needs more processing time.

So as a mom, I need to be more patient, but with my, the kids I work with, you know, you do want to give at least, you know, five seconds. You don't want to ask them a question and ask them again, because then they are going to feel bombarded. And they're going to feel like, oh, wait, the pressure is on and I'm not sure what to say, or I just need more time and I don't know how to ask for it.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I do that a lot with my husband. I'll say something and he just won't respond. And then I'll just like leave. And he's like, Hey, where were you going? Like I was thinking I was trying to respond to you and I'm like, Oh, but like my brain just goes so quickly, you know, like from one thing to the next.

And so I forget that people need time to think. To respond. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think as adults, we need to also indicate that we're thinking, you know, like, Oh, give me a minute. I'm thinking about it. So, you know, I think adult men have a hard time with communicating that they need more time. Yeah. Yeah. And I just get annoyed.

I'm like, you're not even listening to me because I don't know if he's listening and just thinking of a response or if he's just not even paying attention, you know? So I do that with my kids sometimes too. I'll be like, are you. Are you listening to me? What is going on right now? And so, yes, I understand.

It's hard being patient when you don't know if they're like, just thinking of a response or they're just checked out and not even listening to you. So, yeah, but you know, like that you're, you're not strategy, but what you did about just leaving, it could be like a way for to cue him in or people in or whatever that, hey, if I don't answer a little bit sooner or indicate that I'm thinking, then.

Then that my communicative partner is going to be walking away. So like, yeah, you could do that with your kids if they don't respond, just like start leaving. And they'll be like, wait, wait, hold on. I was going to answer you. You know? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So tell us a little bit more about your book and then any resources that you have for parents.

Yes, amazing. So, um, my book, I wrote it as a very conversational handbook that anybody could pick up and, you know, I've had friends that read it and they don't even have kids. And they're like, we really liked your book because it was very interactive. And like one of my chapters is, you know, don't ask a yes, no question unless you're ready to honor the no.

And I think that's a really important strategy for parents to know because oftentimes we ask children, are you ready? Are you ready to work? Are you ready to go to bed? You know, can you clean this up for me? Or can you get me this or that? And all these yes, no questions are being asked. And if a child says no.

Are you going to still make them do it, you know, or, uh, you know, like you don't want to dishonor the no, because if they say no, and you just continue to try to make them do it, then they're going to feel like you're not respecting what they said, and, you know, you have less. Like, uh, cooperation over time, so I like to ask, you know, um, I get like to give choices like, oh, like, if I tell my son, we're going to get ready for bed.

Do you want to brush your teeth first or change into pajamas first or, you know, even simple things. I hate, uh, we need to cut your nails. Do you want to do it tonight or tomorrow? And then he thinks, Oh, well, I'm in charge, I'm going to cut them tomorrow, you know, so it gives them kind of a feeling that they are making part of the decision that they are part of the whole interaction.

Um, or if I'm doing, you know, a therapy session and I want to do, we're going to read a book and do a puzzle. I might ask them, you know, we're going to do the book and remember the puzzle, which one do you want to do first? Yeah, so I might give them an option of, uh, what they want to do, and if I'm working with a kid on articulation, I might say, you know, I might want them to say caterpillar, but I'm not going to say, can you say caterpillar?

Because the kids will be like, uh uh, I don't want to do it, you know, but I say caterpillar, your turn, you do it. And then I might say a sentence and be like, oh, your turn. You know, so it's kind of gives them that, that feeling that they are part of the interaction rather than, can you do this? I want you to do this or whatever.

Um, so saying things in statements or, um, offering choices are really important. Um, so every chapter, you know, like, so. A lot of parents and teachers, they, they are like, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize I asked so many. Yes. No questions. So at the end of every chapter in the book, there's an interactive part where now there's a worksheet and says, and it says, like, you know, now it's time for you to practice how to not say this.

Thing in a yes, no question. How do you offer it in choices or, you know, you know, I have a chapter about like sequencing. Right. So I think, you know, people want to know what's expected of them, you know, so if they know, like, I need to do these three tasks and then I get a reward or a break. I think it's really important.

Um, so it's a chapter about sequencing. And at the end of the chapter, it's like, how do you, you know, chunk the sequencing of a child's day? Okay. You know, to make it more manageable for them to understand what's going to happen because my son really, you know, when he was little, I would say, okay, we're going to go to school and then I'm going to pick you up and then we're going to go to the park.

And so, like, as, as time went on, I would just add more sequence and just more specificity and, and, um, you know, he would. Correct me sometimes like mom, we didn't do such and such. I'm like, Oh, yeah. Thank you for reminding me. So it helps to build their memory. It helps to have expectation. And it also, I think, would decrease.

Like the anxiety or the unknowing, you know, because if you don't know what's going to happen in your day, it's really Difficult for say these kids because they want to know, you know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know My daughter's behavioral therapist was like you need to tell her more about what's going on in her day In the morning.

So she knows what's coming because she has a hard time with transitions. And so the transition is just, you know, we'll come up and I think I've told her, but we just need to tell her more or have a visual schedule or something so that she's able to better understand what's happening. So I love that advice that you gave.

That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Um, So, where can people find you online? So I have a website, playdumbandsabotage. com, and right now I have a free PDF. If they go to the website, they can download a one page PDF on different short, uh, strategies on how to play dumb and sabotage throughout their day, which would be very helpful as well.

Yeah, for sure. So definitely go to that and check out your resources because they are amazing. So definitely go check them out. And our last question is, what do you do for fun? Oh, that's easy. I play pickleball. I love it. I love it. I love playing pickleball. It's such a community sport. You know, I started at the YMCA near my house and, and now like my friends and I will go to like other parks and go on and find games to play in and such, but it's such an easy sport to pick up.

And. You know, anybody can play it and there's, you know, people from their early twenties at the Y all the way to, to like their late sixties and they're all very good, which is amazing. But that's what I, I love. I played like five hours yesterday. Oh, that's awesome. I love pickleball. I haven't played it enough, but I love it.

So that's great. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate your time and all the strategies that you gave us. Thank you very much for having me. Well, Lauren, what did you think? Uh, I think she's amazing. Um, I love the concept of play dumb and sabotage. Um, I think we've talked about this before.

Um, like over anticipating being too helpful for our children that they essentially are like not learning for themselves how to do things. You know, like, we're essentially, we're sabotaging them, right? Um, and so I love that of taking a, digging a step back, playing dumb, making them kind of work for it, you know, using their skills, asking all of that fun stuff.

I, I think that's amazing. I also really loved the the concept of don't ask yes or no questions if you are not prepared to honor the no. And I think we forget that a lot. So when we can get creative and learn to phrase things differently, make it sound like it's their idea. Um, we're going to be more successful, um, and I love straight from the beginning when working with neurodiverse people.

One of the great things and benefits is that it teaches us how to problem solved to think out of the side of the box and be creative. Um, and I really love that. And I feel like all of her tips and tricks and things like that are creative in a way. So yeah, I think she's great. Love to have her back again.

Yeah, I definitely want to have her back and ask some more questions and definitely go check out her book. Um, it's amazing. And yeah, thank you all for listening this week and leave us a review. If you'd be so kind, like I heard on another podcast, if this isn't the worst podcast you've ever heard, leave us a review and tell us what you think.

Um, so yeah, everyone have a great week and we will see you next week.