64 - Dr. Temple Grandin and Being Specific 14/10/24
Dr. Temple Grandin is a renowned animal behaviorist, autism advocate, and professor of animal science at Colorado State University. Diagnosed with autism at a young age, she has used her unique perspective to revolutionize livestock handling systems, designing humane facilities that are used worldwide. Dr. Grandin is also a best-selling author and a leading voice in the neurodiversity movement, advocating for early interventions and supportive environments for individuals on the autism spectrum. Her groundbreaking work has earned her numerous accolades, including being named one of Time magazine’s 100 most influential people. A sought-after speaker, she inspires countless people with her story of turning what others saw as challenges into her greatest strengths.
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This podcast is for parents like you, navigating the world of neurodiversity with love and compassion. I'm a neurodivergent mother of three amazing neurodivergent children and a board certified music therapist. Our mission is to create a supportive space where you feel understood, connected, and inspired.
With practical tips, strategies, and resources, we'll help you and your child thrive in your unique way. Join us as we dive deep into the diverse world of neurodivergent individuals exploring topics like ADHD, autism, dyslexia, sensory processing challenges, and more. We'll cover it all to empower, educate, and uplift both neurodivergent individuals and those who walk alongside them.
Together we'll create a world where every brain is valued and celebrated. We're excited to embark on this enlightening journey with you. We are your hosts, Samantha Fuh and Lauren Ross, and this is the Every Brain is Different podcast.
Welcome to the Every Brain is Different podcast. We're here with Dr. Temple Grandin. And Dr. Grandin is a renowned animal behaviorist, autism advocate, and professor of animal science at Colorado State University. Diagnosed with autism at a young age, she has used her unique perspective to revolutionize livestock handling systems, designing humane facilities that are used worldwide.
Dr. Grandin is also a best selling author and a leading voice in the neurodiversity movement. Advocating for early interventions and supportive environments for individuals on the autism spectrum. Her groundbreaking work has earned her numerous accolades, including being named one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people.
A sought after speaker, she inspires countless people with her story of turning what others saw as challenges into her greatest strengths. Welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you. It's great to be here. Thank you. Um, so as we just said, our main audience are parents and so they gave us some questions that to ask you.
And the first one is how did your mother best support you as a child? Well, I had no speech until age four. Now I'm a college professor and I got into very good early education program. If you have little kids that are not talking and you've got autistic symptoms. You need to do something about it now, uh, and don't wait.
Now, in some parts of the U. S., it's real easy to get services. Other parts of the U. S., uh, there's two year wait lists, which is not acceptable. And so, let's say you have a two year old that's not talking with autistic behavior. Rule out deafness. You've got to make sure they're not deaf. And if you can get into a really good early education program, you want to do it.
And, and, uh, if you don't have a program, you need to start working with the kid. Okay. And you want to work on teaching speech, slow down when you talk to these kids. You've got to give them time to respond. They're like a phone with a poor service. It takes time for it to download a web page. Teach, uh, turn taking games.
I had a lot of emphasis in my program on turn taking games. Learning how to wait and take turns at all kinds of games. And then skills, eating with utensils, brushing their hair. They've got to learn basic, basic skills. So those are the things you want to work on with little kids. And the little kids should like going to therapy and you should get progress.
And I have found some teachers just have the ability to work with these kids and some don't. There's a lot of controversy now about ABA and things like that. Well, there was some old fashioned ABA where they just got in the kid's face too much, forcing eye contact. My program had no eye contact stuff.
Yeah. That's turn taking and skills, getting dressed, brushing your hair, brushing your teeth. That's what my little kids program at age three, we were doing. And, uh, it's important that these kids need quite a lot of hours, a lot of schools will give one hour of speech, one hour of OT a week, that's not sufficient.
What you need to do if you're in that situation is use that professional teacher as a coach and then get some volunteers. Maybe some retired people to work with that little kid, and they can go in and watch the speech therapist work with a child, you know, two hours of therapy a week is not sufficient.
They're going to need a lot more than that. But we've got to start working with little kids because the worst thing you can do is nothing. Waiting two years for three year old to get a diagnosis is absolutely not acceptable. And in certain parts of the country right now, I think we'll leave out where where I was, but that's not acceptable.
Yeah, just start working with them. Um, I have a book called The Way I See It that's got a lot of information in it. I have a little small book that's called Autism in Education. It's a little small gray and white book, Autism in Education. Um, a lot of concise information on things that you can just start working on.
And you gotta start working on it now. And then the parent says, well, how do I know if my kids are progressing? More speech. Always encourage them to use their words, like your child wants the juice, um, then ask them to use the words and, and he goes, he goes, you know, like sort of says that you might, you know, cause he's just learning, you know, he tried.
So you give them the juice and the turd taking games, all kinds of little games you just make up where they have to take turns, how to wait, how to inhibit a response. That's really, really important. Yeah. That's awesome. We have to get working with these children right away. Are there any recommendations you have to, like, discipline kids on the spectrum?
So, if, a lot of kids I know, like, they, it triggers self loathing or self punishing behaviors. So, do you have recommendations on how to help the kid do appropriate behaviors? One thing, you don't, you never, never, never punish, uh, punish sensory overload. Yeah, like when I, we'd go on a ferry boat and we were up on the deck and this really loud horn, they'd blow the horn when they came into the harbor and I find myself on the floor and screamed.
I was not punished for that. Yes, absolutely. I agree. But when I was 5, years old, a temper tantrum at school or at home was no television for one night. It's very evenly applied, but that was not in response to sensory overload. Now, on sensory things, let's say a child's afraid of the vacuum cleaner. Let the child turn that vacuum cleaner on and off.
Because when they control it, it may go from most feared thing to favorite toy. When they can control the sound, it will often be better tolerated. Absolutely. And how do you recommend that parents learn the triggers? Like they might not know. So every time a child goes into a store, for example, they have a meltdown and they don't know if it's, you know, because of the lights or because it's too loud or.
Stuff like that. Um, well, you'd see if there's something sensory in there. Yeah. Now, one of the biggest problems, um, in a lot of places, offices and stores is LEDs that flicker and you can take out your phone right here, fill in the room in slow motion video. You can find the LEDs that flicker. So I tell people that want to, you know, when they're doing new construction, let's put an LED so don't flicker.
That might be a problem for maybe 10 or 20 percent of the autistic population. I don't, they don't bother me. Let's try going to the store when it's not so busy. That might help. Yes, thank you. Give the child some control. Then now if you had too much Walmart, raise your hand, I'll take you out. Where they have control how much Walmart exposure.
And you go there when it's not busy. In fact, Walmart's actually doing the sensory hours where, um, uh, they cut a lot of the noise down now, flickering lights. They can't change that. Cause you have to change every light fixture in the building. And, uh, but in the future, please, in new construction, let's not be putting in lights at Flickr because they also bother your veterans that have head injuries.
Absolutely. Yeah, that's good information. Um, switching a little bit. So we have some more questions. Did, um, when you were diagnosed with autism and as you've grown, have you felt any resistance to it? I know some kids that get diagnosed kind of like feel a resistance to being diagnosed with it. And what would you say to them?
Well, a lot of famous people were autistic. Uh, you might want to have them read my book, Visual Thinking. There's a whole chapter in here on famous autistic people like Einstein and, uh, uh, Tesla who invented the power plant. Um, a lot of famous people were, probably were autistic. And I also like to talk about the different kinds of thinkers.
Yes. You're not able to see that in three year olds usually, but when the kids get a little older, and this is discussed in this book, you have the physical thinkers like me that are very good at art and mechanical, art and mechanical go together. I'm seeing too many kids today growing up that have never used a tool.
This is ridiculous. You know, they might be really good with Legos and they, they're a teenager now, never used a tool. I was using tools in second grade. Screwdriver, hammer, and pliers. And, and when I was 8, in 5th grade, a little hand saw. No power tools. Now I think some of these small electric drills would be okay now that they have, that are battery operated.
Um, it's ridiculous. You've got people not using tools. So the visual thinkers can be really good at building things. And we need our visual thinkers. Well, I'm going to be terrible at algebra, never have passed algebra. But I've worked with people who can't do algebra that are building all kinds of complicated mechanical equipment and patented.
Yeah. And, and for my kind of thinker, let's think about jobs, high end skilled trades. I'm going to really push that because a lot of animation jobs are going to be taken over by artificial intelligence. Video game design, that industry's already laid off tons of people. I'm going to push But who's going to fix all the, all the power plant equipment and all other stuff that's all been busted up by the storm?
Yeah, the people that can use tools are going to fix that stuff. And those kind of storms are just going to get worse. And, and we need those skills. Then you take your mathematical kid. You see, I think in pictures of difficulty with higher math, the mathematical kid thinks in patterns. Now, I'm seeing some bad stuff going on with our math kids, and we're not doing enough to develop their skills.
I'm hearing stories where eight year old is forced to do baby math over and over again, turns into a gigantic behavior problem because they're bored stiff with the baby math. No, they need to be moved ahead in math. I'm not suggesting putting a third grader in high school. I'm suggesting getting a laptop with a math program on it, Or textbooks and let the kid just work their own pace on the harder math.
Because math kids become behavior problems when they're bored. They can get in lots of trouble. I don't want bored math kids. I want math kids growing up and this is the kind of stuff I want math kids to think about when they're young. A better solar panel. A better battery. Um, data centers. Most young people don't even know what a data center is.
They don't even know where the movies come from. They come out of vast warehouses full of computers that eat astronomical amounts of electricity. And Chat GPT eats astronomical amounts of electricity. Okay, math kid, when you grow up, you're going to make a data center that's going to have half the power required.
That's the kind of stuff I want math kids thinking about working on. Yeah, that would be amazing. We need their skills for that kind of stuff. And then, you've got your kid that's a word thinker, your autistic word thinker. They'll, they love history, and they like, um, all kinds, all kinds of facts about sports teams and stuff like that.
They just love that kind of stuff. So, in most normal people are mixtures of the different kinds of thinking. They're mixtures. But autistics, you might have an extreme visual thinker like me. And the HBO movie, Temple Grandin, shows exactly how I think. Or an extreme mathematician, pattern thinker, and there's scientific research that shows these different kinds of thinking exist.
And that's all explained in this book, uh, Visual Thinking. It's also, um, in some other languages now, but we need to develop these skills. Yeah. If people have not read Visual Thinking, definitely, like our listeners, definitely go get that book. It's amazing and really explains these different ways of thinking, which I think are so important and important.
Um, I heard you in another interview that you were saying we need to help kids when they get in school to develop their thinking patterns, like you were just saying, but how can we do that in the school as it is now? Or how can we affect the change? Well, I'm very, very concerned that so many schools have taken out hands on classes.
Yeah, because we need to be introducing tools and art, sewing and woodworking and all these kinds of things when kids are young and, and, uh, I loved, uh, I had woodshop in us in elementary school, sewing and art. I love those classes. Um, and I think visual thinking is actually common sense. I'm seeing things today where I've got a college student that had never used a ruler in her life.
Um, just the other day, I heard about a person who went into Home Depot to buy a light fixture for their bathroom and they didn't know you need tools to install it. This is ridiculous. Yeah. We just need to teach that to our kids so they can, they're able to function. Well, the other thing we need to be teaching is working skills.
Yeah. Yes. We're doing a much better job with our little kids than we're doing with making the transition to adulthood. Now, I know they don't have paper routes anymore. But I have grandparents that come up to me and they discover they're autistic when the kids get diagnosed, but that grandparents got a good job, like a pharmacist or a computer programmer or an engineer, and they learned work skills, paper routes at age 11.
So we're going to need to replace those maybe with church volunteer jobs. They need to do something that's a scheduled task. For somebody who's not family, it's really important. They might help an old person. They might, um, um, I had a job when I was 13 and my mother just got in the neighborhood, done working with a seamstress that worked out of her home that did dressmaking and I hand hemmed the dresses for her that was just figured out in the neighborhood, but they just start learning work skills.
And ideally the fully verbal ones have two real jobs for the graduate high school. Now let's give you some tips. I want to avoid rapid multitasking chaos at the McDonald's takeout window. We just don't go there. Absolutely. Yeah. I worked out window that multitasking chaos. The other problem is working memory issues.
So if I've got to close out the cash register at Walmart, Give me a pilot's checklist of the steps. I need to write them down, because I will not remember them, even now. I'll need a pilot's checklist. Like, I have a checklist right now. Hard reboot of the computer. There's five steps. My computer guy just goes like this, Well, Chris, I can't remember that.
I have to write down the five steps. Hold the button down momentarily. Then I do something else, and then I hold it down for ten seconds. I've got to write that down. Pilots checklists. That would save a lot of jobs. Yes, absolutely. This is where I'm seeing, I'm seeing teenagers who have never gone in a store and bought something.
They've never gone up to the counter at McDonald's and ordered food. This is ridiculous. They're getting everything done for them.
Yeah. Do you think it's important for parents for how can they better support their children in their special interests that hopefully lead to interest in some of these jobs later? Well, let's say visual thinkers like me need to be making things. When I was in first grade, I was making things out of cardboard and paper.
I would tinker for hours with little bird kites. And I have a book called Calling All Minds. It's my kid's project book. I have another book called The Outdoor Scientist. Kids need to be a visual thinkers need to be making things and they need to learn how to use tools Mathematician kids need to be given more advanced math take that thing in in broadening.
Okay Let's say a kid loves cars. Let's read about The car industry. Let's, um, do mathematics with cars. Take that interest and broaden it. What we need to be doing. But we've got too many people where they're totally separated from the world of hands on things. And I think visual thinking is common sense.
You see, you ask a lot of very verbal, top down, very vague questions. I'm giving you some specific things that you can do. Very, very specific things. And there are things that have come up over and over and over again in my talks. Yeah. I liked what you said, um, at a conference that I went to that you were at.
And you said, get kids off screens out of the basement and get them out doing things that will help them have a job later. And I just thought that was amazing because there's so many parents that. You know, their kids want to be on devices, and so, me included, like, we just let our kids be on devices when we need to be encouraging them to do things, like you said, hands on activities.
Well, there's, there's been, uh, young adults addicted to video games where they're able to get them off of them by introducing car mechanics. And they found out motors are more interesting than video games. I was just up in the, um, Wisconsin area. And, uh, they do a lot of, um, snowmobiling and that kind of things.
Well, those have small engines. Let's get that autistic teenager fixing the snowmobiles. Fixing boat motors and things like this. Um, someone has to introduce them to these things. But these are things that can turn into jobs. Yes, thank you. Um, we had a question of what is something a parent could say to help their autistic child deal with bullies or people who don't understand them?
Well, I had a lot of bullying in teenage years. Worst part of my life. Only places that was not bullied was friends through shared interests. Well, one enterprising teacher started a star awards club because the autistic kid liked Star Wars that gave that kid. An opportunity to have friends through shared interests.
That was really a good thing to do. So important. That is awesome. Thank you. Um, and on that same thing, um, if you could go back in time and like maybe as a teenager or a 10 year old and give yourself advice, what would it be? Don't have told my younger self, teenage years are going to be bad, but when you, when you become an adult, it's going to get better.
That's what I would have told my teenage self because that was my worst, worst, uh, part of my life. Thank you. Um, and then what has helped you navigate like the neurotypical world as you've, um, gotten older as you've gone through life? Well, I still can't be, I have processing speed issues. So that's why the multitasking jobs are harder.
That's why I'm learning to drive. I had spend more time in a totally safe place on to learn driving and I had my license for a whole year before I did freeway. I worked into it much more slowly. And one of the things I cannot do is follow fast chit chat conversations and restaurants when there's noise.
And this has to do with processing speed. Um, I'm never going to be very good at the bar scene. Where you might have three or four people kind of laughing together. There's a rhythm. I can't my processor speeds too slow. So I tend to find one person at a party. Talk to them on. Also, I have problems with interrupting and that's because my processor speed is slow and I can't figure out when to break into the conversation.
I still have that problem. So I've tended to gravitate towards real specialized things. Where, where, uh, in my work of livestock, um, equipment, I became skilled in a specialized thing. Here is, um, a copy of one of my drawings right here. And I learned to sell my work rather than myself. And I became really skilled in a specialized field.
That's, that's something I did. Yeah. That's, that's great. A lot of autistics often are really successful with their own businesses. Yeah. But one of the problems with that now is health insurance. I had to get, before I became a half time professor, I had to get health insurance for the National Association of the Self Employed.
It cost a lot of money, with about a thousand dollar deductible. Um, But that can be a big, a big issue. And it's a bigger issue now than it was in the past. Yes. People, I know a lot of people have struggled with that who have been self employed. Um, how would you recommend that, you know, autistic people go about owning their own business, um, when there's so many different things involved in that?
What are some suggestions? Well, personally, I had some good mentors. I had a good science teacher in high school who showed me how studying was a pathway to becoming a scientist. That was really good. And then there was a contractor starting a small steel and concrete business named Jim Uhl. And he hired me to design jobs for him, but he also showed me how to set up a business.
He referred me to his lawyer that had set up his business and because you have to really need to set up the business, you have to have a lawyer and do it. It's going to cost some money, but that has to be professionally done. And then you have to learn how to do the taxes. So now I have an accountant that does the taxes.
But learn how to set up a business. That's something I had to learn how to do. You know, work into it gradually. And one of the things, the problem with some of the disability stuff is if they make too much money, they lose the health insurance. I wish you could have it where lose the pay, but not lose the health insurance.
Yeah, that is a problem that I've heard a lot of people talk about. It's been a problem for as long as I've been around because when I was in, in, in graduate school, I had a blind roommate and that's back in the seventies. And the problem existed then she said, well, if I could just keep the health insurance.
Yeah, this is this is something that that's not good, but I've worked with people that own their own shops that did all kinds of equipment design metal fabrication shops. They took a class in high school, or they. I've worked on cars and they had their own businesses and I worked with them on equipment and they had 20 patents each.
Now they got big enough where they could afford health insurance, but you see right in the beginning it was difficult when you're first just getting started. Yeah. That's definitely something that we need to work on as a society to help. On the other hand, where, where autistic people have been very, very successful a lot of times is in their own businesses.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's awesome. I like that you say that because there's so many kids who are like, well, are parents of kids that say my child can't have a traditional job, so they're not going to have a job, but they can have their own business. Well, and I started out my, you know, livestock handling.
I decided to start out very slowly, one little project at a time, but I also saw the worst opportunity. There's a scene in the HBO movie. Temple Brandon, where I go up and I get the editor's card. Cause I knew if I wrote for the state farm magazine, that would really help my career. Yeah. It's the way I sold projects is that I'd write about them.
That's what I did. Yeah. I, I admire you so much for your work in the cattle industry. Like I come from an agricultural background and I just think your work has been phenomenal in that area. And that you said, you know, you look for opportunities where you can. Grow and get more opportunities. That's really important to me.
Also picked out an area that was specialized And when I first started in this area, there was like almost nobody else working in this. Now today there are some other people working, but that wasn't the case when I started. And the problem we've got now is the shops that I worked with building equipment, they're not getting replaced.
And right now on food processing equipment for pigs and chickens, I've got to, um, get all the equipment from Europe. And this goes back to their educational system where at ninth grade, you can go tech or you can go university. We stick our nose up at tech. Well, we've just had this big storm. Visual thinkers like me that are terrible at math, they're gonna, the ones that are gonna put those electrical systems, those water systems back together again.
And we don't have enough of these people. You see, a visual thinker sees how to build something. A math petition calculates. But all that rusted equipment? Uh, that stuff's going to get put together by my kind of mind. And the HBO movie shows exactly how I think. That's very accurate. The HBO movie Temple Grandin.
Yes. People should definitely watch that. I watched that last night with my son. He's nine years old. And he has been diagnosed with autism and he thought it was fascinating. He, yeah, he loved it. So thank you for all your work. Yeah. Um, is there anything else that you want to tell parents? Well, those are, those are some of the main things.
Okay. The, um, okay. You have little kids that aren't talking. You got to do something about it right away. Now in some parts of the U. S. Um, You can get services really easily. Other parts of the U. S., three year olds on a two year wait list, for a diagnosis, that's not acceptable. I could maybe live with a six month wait list, but not two years.
Yeah. And, and, uh, you've got to start working with them. And my book, uh, Autism in Education, a little small gray and white book, that's a good place for parents to start. Because they won't be overwhelmed with too much stuff on, but they've got to get working with the child now. I can't emphasize that enough.
The worst thing you can do with three year olds that are not talking is to do nothing. You have to rule out deafness. You've got to make sure they're not deaf. And I have found some teachers have the ability to work with these kids and some don't. And you, and the mom's going to have to get some help.
She can't do it all herself. You know, get some retired people in neighborhood to come in and play games with the kid, for example. Are there other things schools can be doing to better educate these children? Well, a lot of these kids, let's say we're on the, let's go on the fully verbal end of the spectrum.
Um, hands on classes, especially for my kind of thinkers and for the mathematicians, for the mathematics kids, um, move ahead in math. All right, now let's talk about the ones that never learned to speak. Some of the non speakers can learn to type independently. And you want to use a tablet, and the reason for using a computer tablet is when you type on the virtual keyboard, the print appears next to the keyboard, that's important.
Because on this desktop, I look down here, and then I gotta look up here. The print appears here, the keyboard's down here. That doesn't work. They can't gaze shift. Use a tablet. You can just use the text messaging program. Don't send them, just back out of them. Just take the cursor and back out of them. Use the text messaging and all the tablets.
They have the right price free. If you just look around. There any other tech that has come out that there's a lot of tech coming out, but I'm always trying to give you the thing that our low income folks can do. Yeah. Let me tell you, tablets are around even the lowest income communities. You can find old tablets and if like a word program or a.
Text program still works on it. I'm not suggesting sending a text. You're just using that for something to type on because the print appears next to the keyboard. You know, I want to, there's all kinds of tech. Um, sometimes you can get through the schools, but I want to encourage learning how to type. You saw the non verbals.
I've talked to parents where they went into their, like maybe 12 year olds, browser history. Found out they were looking up current events. They were really surprised what was in the browser history. And then they started teaching them to type and you have to, uh, you have to work towards independent typing where you're not touching the kid or the thing they type on to prevent queuing.
Yeah. And queuing for those, um, who don't know, it's just like they become reliant on you helping them. Correct. Well, what happened in queuing is that they. The person that's helping them may be the author, rather than the autistic person. That makes sense. Well, you want to make sure that you get to the point where they can type without being touched.
And there's some very, very good books on non speakers. There's Tita McApaddy. Hey, how can I talk? My lips don't move. There's The Reason I Jump by Noki the Japanese Boy and there's a sequel to The Reason I Jump that's a much better book because he's older and has a lot more insight. And one of the things that he talks about in that book is that people would often help him too much.
He wanted to learn how to do these things on his own. How can parents, um, help their kids but know when it's time to back off and let their kids be independent? That's Well, you have to just gradually work on it. One of the big problems I'm seeing, teenagers, fully verbal, maybe doing well in school, they've never gone shopping by themselves.
They've never ordered food in a restaurant by themselves. This is ridiculous. And some parents just can't let go. Well, they've got to let go. They've got to learn these things. I was doing shopping when I was seven and eight years old. Yeah. The other thing I think that helped in my generation with the fully verbals, is that Is adults corrected little kids, no matter where you went, adults corrected little kids.
You were taught to say please and thank you. You were taught to, to um, uh, uh, just wait your turn at games and things like this. Yeah. I call it teachable moments. Like we're eating and I'm, let's say I stuck my finger in the mashed potatoes and I went, I Well, my mom wouldn't scream, no, she would say, use the fork.
People think that's disgusting when you eat mashed potato with your fingers. She'd calmly give the instruction and the reason I call it teachable moments. I love it. I love it. Very, very simple, standard fifties upbringing. And that's one of the reasons why there's a lot of grandparents that find out they're autistic later in life, but they all had jobs and getting a diagnosis later in life, you Was helpful, uh, because it gave insight into relationships.
And I have another book that's titled Different, Not Less. 18 people explaining their, yeah, well, you've got it right there. Yep. I actually got a lot of insights. When I, uh, edited that book and they all have jobs ranging from a tour guide, nursing home attendant to doctor and computer scientist, I've made sure they had a variety of different kinds of jobs.
Yeah, that's awesome. But I'm seeing too many people get locked into the label and they'll ask me all these vague questions. Well, how do I support an autistic kid? Well, first of all, I got to know their age. Are we working with early intervention age? Yeah. Um, a, um, elementary school, nonverbal when they get older, um, I have to have a little more information before I can answer the questions because the verbal mind tends to overgeneralize.
Yes. You know, what can I do to make a classroom more inclusive? I'll tell you what to do. Let's get rid of the LED lights that flicker, putting more, uh, instructions like in a checklist format, written down, getting bullying under control. That's really, really important. Those are three things you could do to make a classroom more inclusive.
It's not just saying, oh, we need to make it more inclusive. I'm giving you three specific things that you can do to make a classroom more inclusive. And they're fairly easy things to do. And they're specific. Yes, be more specific. The verbal thinker tends to overgeneralize.
Yes, I've noticed with my kids, if I give them a specific reason why we need to do something or a specific reason why they can't do something, it's easier for them to accept and we have less meltdowns because all my kids have autism. And just being specific with them has really helped them. Well, that's really good.
And how much the ages of your kids? Uh, four, seven, and nine. Okay, so they're still pretty small kids. Yeah. But you give them a reason. You see, when mother, uh, when I stuck my finger in the mashed potatoes, she didn't just scream no, she said use the fork, but she also gave the reason. People think that's disgusting when you eat it with your fingers.
She gave the instruction calmly and the reason. Yes. I think that's so important to remember. Like, kids don't do things just to make us mad. There's a reason they're doing it, and then we have to give them a reason why they shouldn't be doing it. Well, we talked about the kid initiating the sound to, uh, tolerate things like vacuum cleaners.
Also, if you let a child wear headsets all the time, it's going to make sound sensitivity worse. So, what you want to do is let them have it with them, with you all the time, so you have control. It's with you all the time. And if the fire alarm goes off or some other horrible noise, you can put it on for that.
And there's some places, like I call industrial strength bathrooms, where you've got all these hand dryers and stuff, yeah, you can put it on to go in there. Yeah. But then other times, you need to have it off, but you have it with you. And then scratchy clothes, that's something that's still a problem for me, is scratchy clothes.
Scratchy clothes. You know, and let the child pick out some of the things that are softer, but then wash them maybe twice. Things that go against my skin have to be washed once before I wear them against my skin. Even now, I'm doing that. Those are great tips. Thank you. These are simple things that people can do.
There are also things that have come up over and over and over again. The pilot's checklist, another very simple thing for tasks that involve a sequel. My last question that I have is what, what is your, what accomplishment are you most proud of that you have? Well, I have my projects I did in the seventies, which are shown in the HBO movie, Temple Grandin.
And one of the things that motivated me to do those projects was I wanted to prove I wasn't stupid. Very, very, very big motivator. Now when it comes to animal welfare, one of the things that probably made some of the biggest differences was a very, very simple scoring system I developed for meatpacking plants for animal handling.
We measure just real simple things. How many animals slip and fall? How many animals move when you handle them? Or a pig squeal when you handle? You know, very simple outcome measures. And in 1999, I taught McDonald's, Burger King, and Wendy's how to use this, and it resulted in great change. And the thing I'm really happy about is that most of the places we didn't have to remodel them.
We had to just do a lot of repairs and put in some non slip flooring. Um, but this is something I did that made a huge difference. And it's also something specific. You know, people say, well, what do we do to just get some, get them treated better? I did something very specific. I came up with a very simple scoring system that I taught a major customers, three of them, like starting with McDonald's Burger King and Wendy's, how to use them.
It was very, very straightforward. It wasn't just a vague treat animals better. They had to make certain numbers. I like that. Yep. It was real or real simple. And that I already had a lot of equipment out in the industry, but people weren't operating correctly. You see, I used to think if I could build a self managing cattle handling facility, you can't, you know, people, people would say, well, we put internet in the schools, it's gonna make the schools wonderful.
Well, it didn't. That doesn't replace teaching. I call it wanting the thing more than wanting the management. There's a good way to put that. Yeah. Yeah. They want the magic thing more than just the hard work of being a good teacher. Yep. Everybody wants a magic something to avoid the hard work. Well, that's the problem.
You know, we have the same problem in the cattle industry. They want the magic thing, a magic computer, a magic drug. You know, now it's going to be all artificial intelligence. It's going to take over managing cattle. Oh, no way. No way. Yeah. Um, we have one more, well, a couple more questions. Okay. That's fine.
What has been the best part of being autistic? I like the logical way that I think. I like the way I problem solve. I'm very good at problem solving. Yes. And I think that common sense is visual thinking. Like if I take a cup of water and I put it on a laptop when I'm on a plane, I saw a guy do that on a plane when it's flying.
Putting a cup of water on his open laptop. I'd never do that. The plane hits a bump. It's a ruined computer. That's seeing risk. That's also common sense. I think we're losing some of that. I can't believe some of the stuff I've had to do. My students have to do a scale drawing in my livestock handling class.
I had a student who had never used a ruler in her life, a college student. I had a student just recently that didn't know that, because you make a cattle chute 30 inches wide, she didn't know that two foot six inches was 30 inches. Yeah. I just, uh, I just heard a story about someone who went into Home Depot to buy a light fixture for their bathroom and they didn't know that you needed tools to install it.
I think that's ridiculous. Yeah. We need to do better for sure. Yeah. These are, these are things that are recent that are happening right now. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what has been the toughest aspect of having autism? High school. Absolutely. Worst part of my life. With all the bullying. I got kicked out of a regular school and I went to a special school and they immediately put me to work running the horse barn.
I didn't do any studying, but I cleaned a lot of horse stalls, but I learned how to work. I still had to go to classes, didn't care if I studied, but I had to go to classes. I had to go to meals. I couldn't become a recluse in my room. And Mr. Patey, the headmaster said, let her get through her adolescence.
But I learned how to work good big problem. We're not making transition from school to work. Yeah Our last question is what do you do for fun? Oh, I have did a lot of things I like going to science fiction movies. That's something I did for fun. I always liked science fiction Um, I pulled off a flying saucer Hulk sauce in high school And I had a whole school believing that when the students had seen a flying saucer out their window You No, it was a round piece of cardboard covered with kinfoil with a Dairy Queen dish on top for a dome with a light in it and I swung it in front of their window.
Fantastic. That's amazing. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on our show. We truly appreciate your time. Okay. Well, it's been good to talk to you and I hope I've given you some tips that you can take home and use. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to sign off. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. Lauren, my life dream has just been accomplished.
Like I admire Dr. Temple Grandin so much. I learned about her when I was a freshman in college. And just following her story has been amazing. And I love her advice of just. Teach your kids, you know, kids just do something. If they're not speaking, then do something. If they're not understanding common sense, teach them, teach them how to use tools, teach them in the way that they think.
And if people have not read visual thinking and you have an autistic child or neurodivergent child in general. Go read it because I think it's so important to understand how we think and how we can, you know, help those thinkers. So anyway, I am just so excited right now. What did you think? What were the highlights?
Um, so many, um, she's so knowledgeable. She's so accomplished and it's just, And like a real life example to not underestimate, um,
do not underestimate these people and, you know, what they could potentially do and accomplish. Um, I really. Uh, like the, when we talk about this, the, the calmly, you know, give the instruction and explain the why, explain the reason, you know, we've talked about it before, you're going to get a lot more buy in, um, when, when we explain why, um, I think, I know we kind of led to this, but we're very instant gratification, you know, society, we want to now don't put the hard work into it.
And I think with all of this, um, You know, we can't change people. You can't change your child, but we can teach. And that's a process and it takes work and, uh, All of the, the stuff, you know, on the tips and like, there are things that take work and I, it's just, you have to remember that when you can put in the work, like, look at all of the potential that can be there.
Um, I, uh, one thing she said, and this didn't really click to me, but I, I talk about this a lot of how to help them find people with the similar interests. Um, and I thought that was genius if you're a teacher or an educator and you have one of these students who has a special interest, create a club for them and see what other kids come.
Um, I think that's genius and so simple and like, why, I don't know, that's like the first time I just, yeah, that like, I know some kids will like initiate like a club, but like, The teacher, if you see a kid struggling to make friends, whether they're neurotypical or not, or whatever, like create a club for them with their special interests and see what comes of that.
I think that's genius. Yeah. Cause you can find friends that have your special interests that you could talk about it all day long if you want to. Um, uh, another thing that, that stood out, um, especially, you know, um, as we move into adulthood and stuff, I really like that. She said, sell your work, not yourself.
Yes. And I think that can take you a long way. I like the, her concept of like, find an issue, a special interest, like one thing, and then figure it out and sell that. You don't have to sell yourself, like, sell your work. And I think that's a really great advice for anybody. Yeah. Really. And so, so many things, never punishing sensory overload I think that's.
Really important, uh, we all do things to help like, or sensory or stemming things, uh, to calm us down. And that shouldn't be a punishment. Yeah, absolutely. Again, if it's a disruptive, we can teach a replacement, but it should never be punished. And I think that's a really great reminder, like sensory overload, overload should not be.
The response to that shouldn't be punished. We just need to teach it a different response, right? Yeah, just teach him how to You know, like she was saying if it's too loud have the headphones with you for when it gets too loud So you don't have a meltdown you can just put your headphones on and I love love love how she said Let the child be in control.
Let them have some control. And I think that's especially, you know, like with kids with pathological demand avoidance, PDA, um, let them have control in their lives. And I think you'll see a dramatic improvement in behavior and coping skills. Yeah, and it's, I feel like it's so easy to do, like, just the sense of control and choice.
Like, if they hate going to the grocery store, let them pick the music we listen to on the way there. Let them pick out what cart they, that should be easy. You know, do you want to go through the front entrance or do you want to go through the back entrance? Let's buy the toys. Like, there's so many, like, little things of, of giving choice that allow them control in their lives.
Um, that can make a world of difference. Yes. Uh, I, I kind of agree and like along with that, uh, when we mentioned the headphones, like just letting someone wear headphones all the time, I agree is probably not going, it's just going to make that sensitivity worse. And so I feel like sometimes again, we're overprotective and sometimes, sometimes we Got to let some stuff happen so we can learn and grow so we can figure it out.
Um, but I think, I mean, she kind of mentioned it, like we're not correcting kids either. Um, and there is a positive way to do that, you know, action doesn't mean discipline or punishment. Um, I think that's an important distinction, but, uh, so there's so many things that are just so many things. Um, It's hard to go on.
I am just like floating on cloud nine right now that we got to interview her. Um, I really last thing for me. Um, I really liked that. She said, let autistic people own their own businesses. And so, you know, sell not themselves, but like the thing that they're doing, but give them support. I know that, um, we interviewed John from John's crazy socks and he's on, he has down syndrome, but his family supported him in opening that business and look at what it's done.
Like driving and just giving your kids that, um, support can really help them in doing what they need to do to be, um, and her different, not less, uh, cause it talks about a lot of how they get into jobs and owning their own businesses. And it's again, having that support of people and. hiring the people that can do the things that you're not good at.
And so, uh, one of the things that's brought up a few times is having a business manager to help manage the, the intricate details and the forms that need to be filled out and whatever. And, and a cool thing with this though, too, is that higher people that have that special interest, you know, you could hire another person with autism.
That's an amazing accountant. Yeah. Yeah. Supporting. Let's just find your people, find your tribe and with all that support, like sky's the limit. Yeah, definitely find your support team. I love how she talked about that too. Like finding who can support you, you know, who can you support? Just like you just said, you know, if you have a business, hire an accountant who's autistic.
Um, and that doesn't mean you just have to go hire everyone that's autistic or whatever to support the community. You have to find people that work well with you. And that doesn't mean they have to be autistic. Yeah. Just like, Find your support team. I know, like I could never run my business without my support team.
Like I have my, uh, program supervisor, she supervises the employees. She runs all the, you know, she does all the things. And then I had my administrative assistant and billing specialist who I would not get paid if it weren't for her. Like I can't do all those things and I am awful at doing those things.
So I stick to doing music therapy. And running the parent education side of things, and I let those people work their magic because I, I, I can't, I'm not good at it. So, yeah. Um, and I, I love, uh, one last thing that I, I love and, uh, we talk about a lot is being specific and we are all guilty. Like we, we make a lot of general things and a lot of people out there, even me.
Like, I don't, when you're telling me to do something, like I need specifics, I don't express it. Maybe that need out loud as maybe I should, um, but be specific. And I like the, the pilot checklist. Um, so just checklist for tasks, especially if there's multiple steps, um, can really help, especially a kiddo, um, and especially with daily things, you know, like the steps to brush your teeth.
The steps. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's no schedules. Yeah. Visual schedules, but having that, that, yeah, that checklist of toothbrush out to based on set your time or whatever it might be. Um, or just, again, these are small things that we can do that can really help someone. Um, and that's something that I.
Talk a lot about it, be specific in what you want and then, you know, how to make that happen. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you all for listening today and leave us a review. Let us know what you thought of the episode. Um, we'd love to hear your comments and yeah, have a good week. We'll see you next week.
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