49 - PDA and Connection Before Correction 01/07/24

In this episode, Samantha and Lauren will explore Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), a profile on the autism spectrum marked by extreme anxiety related to everyday demands. Due to a lack of recognition for PDA, it is crucial for parents to learn the appropriate parenting techniques for children with this condition! Stay tuned!

Here's what to expect on the podcast:

• Some typical behaviors exhibited by children with PDA.

• How do children with PDA commonly react to everyday demands and requests?

• The importance of prioritizing connection over correction.

• What are some common triggers that can lead to anxiety or avoidance behaviors in children with PDA?

• And much more!

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We're excited to embark on this enlightening journey with you. We are your hosts samantha foot and lauren ross, and this is the every brain is different podcast Welcome to the every brain is different podcast. It is sam and lauren today by ourselves And we are going to talk about PDA or pathological demand avoidance and the importance of prioritizing connection over correction, which is a positive discipline strategy when you are raising your PDA child.

So, that's what we're talking about today. I love it. Um, so PDA, we've talked, we've had a couple episodes about PDA. And it's just a profile on the autism spectrum. Um, I was going to say on the autism spectrum disorder, but no, it's a profile on the autism spectrum and it's characterized by extreme anxiety around everyday demands.

So a lot of kids with PDA in the United States are diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder. And Because PDA is not really recognized in the United States, a lot of people just classify it as ODD. There are very few psychiatrists or psychologists or other people that diagnose, so actually diagnose a child with PDA, which I think is very unfortunate.

Yeah. Yeah, because Like not getting the help you need. Yeah, yeah, because the basis of PDA is anxiety. And when a child is diagnosed with ODD. It's like, Oh, they're just being defiant because they're defiant. And I don't even think that's what ODD is, but we won't get into that. I think, well, we are going to get into it.

Yeah. I think that ODD kids don't just randomly have it. I think from what I've read, It is trauma based. And when a kid goes through trauma, they develop characteristics of ODD. And so I don't think any kid who has been diagnosed with ODD is just defiant to be defiant. There's always an underlying reason, like we always say behavior is communication.

They're, they're trying to say something. Yeah. And we just need to figure it out. Yeah. And if kids could do better, they would do better. They're not trying to make you mad, they're not trying to like be defiant. It's just. What they have to do to get the things they need, you know, so yeah, that was we had an outline guys, and I just went off the outline, but Yeah, I am very passionate about PDA um so PDA is just anxiety based.

You make a demand on a person, and it's not just a childhood thing. Like, there are adults with PDA, and you make a demand on someone, and then they get anxious. They go into fight or flight mode, and then they just shut down. Like, my son, He literally shuts down. He will go and, like, sink into a little ball on the floor and refuse to talk to you, refuse to do anything.

He's not lashing out. He's not doing any of that stuff. He's just refusing to do anything. And, uh, I used to get so frustrated because I was like, why won't you talk to me? What is your problem? And now recognizing that it comes from a place of anxiety just helps me understand him so much more. And so I'm more willing to be like, okay, I'm going to give you a break and then we're going to come back to this.

Or I'm going to give you a break and then we're just not going to come back to this. That's, we're moving on with life. I'm not going to make you do the thing that I asked you to do that sent you into this thing. You know? But sometimes you have to do things. And those are non negotiables. Um, I really like this thing that I was, this has nothing to do with parenting, but this morning I was listening to someone's Instagram stories, and it was Heather Sager.

She's a speaking coach, and she was saying that She had an issue with the people that were buying her house. They wanted her to do something and she didn't want to do it. And they said they weren't going to buy the house unless she did what they wanted them to do. And she's like, well, I want to sell my house.

It's been on the market for a while. So do I keep paying mortgage, a mortgage on two houses or do I just do what they want me to do? Which is very little in comparison to having to keep paying on the house and not selling it. Yeah. Or do I fight it? And then not sell the house. And so do I be happy or do I be right?

And then you're just like, Oh my gosh, that is so true. Like, especially with your kids, like, do you want to ruin their relationship with them just so they can unload the dishwasher because you asked them to unload the dishwasher and they went into anxiety panic mode and couldn't do it. Or do you want to have.

An awesome relationship with them and learn to work with them and be able to do the things that you both need to do. And that was just very, that was just so like, bing, bing, bing realization for me this morning. I was like, and I think about that a lot. Like, am I willing? To ruin my relationship over this thing that I'm asking my child to do, because I also read this thing, and I don't know all the research that has gone into this, but they say that yelling at your kids does the same damage as physically hurting them.

And so, if you're getting into like yelling matches with your kid, what is that doing to your kid? What is that doing to you? And the relationship with your child. Yeah, and what is that doing to your relationship? And, I don't know, I just think about that a lot, like, am I willing to damage my relationship with my kid so that he'll unload the dishwasher?

The dishwasher is like right in front of me, that's why I keep saying unload the dishwasher. And it does need unloaded. So, um, which ironically, when I ask my son, who has PDA, to unload the dishwasher, he unloads it every time, no problem. But when I ask him to do other things, he Like, if I ask him to read and he doesn't want to read, he shuts down, but then if it's his idea, he will read no problem.

So it's all in like knowing your triggers, your kid's triggers. Do you think it's, he, he knows the process of unloading the dishwasher. He's done it enough times that it's not, it doesn't put him into fight or flight versus like reading. Like, I know that is something that he has struggled with. And imagine there are some days it's like, absolutely not.

I don't want to do that. Yeah, and I think with reading, he doesn't know what words are going to show up. He doesn't know what book I'm going to ask him to read. Too many unknowns. Yeah, and that's another thing. Um, first of all, I have to tell you all what happened with my son last night about reading. This is amazing.

So he has always struggled with reading ever since preschool. Ever since even reading was introduced, he's struggled with reading. And last night, he grabbed the scriptures. And he was, because I said we had to read him before bed, and I always read them. I never expect him to read them because there are some crazy words in there.

He grabs the book. He starts reading. He's like, can I read? Absolutely. You can read. He read almost an entire page of small print. Words from the scriptures. There was like wilderness and Zarahemla and like he was reading those words No problem, and I was so proud of him But he almost got to the end of the page and he's like wow I've read a lot that that is The end of the page is like way down there.

Can I just stop? And I was like, absolutely. You can stop. Like you've done amazing. So let's just all give a collective round of applause to my son. Cause he's amazing. So, so I was talking about food and I know that food is a huge issue with a lot of kids with autism and PDA. And I was listening to someone talk about this and they said, you know, kids like prepackaged foods because they're always the same.

They always taste the same, but if you give him an apple, you never know, you never know what it's going to taste like you give him a banana. Like, you don't know if that banana is going to be ripe, overripe, not ripe enough. You never know. Yeah. Yeah. And just the sensory issues like I know blueberries, for example, blueberries, you never know what you're going to get.

And so I even have a hard time eating blueberries because. You pick one, and you have a whole handful, and you pick one, and it tastes great. And then you pick the next one, and it's all mushy. And then you pick the next one, and it's super tart. I don't blame these kids at all! Exactly. So, yeah, that was just something that I wanted to bring up.

Like, your kids aren't doing it. To be defiant, and that is a common misconception about PDA, is that they're just doing it to be defiant because they want to be defiant, and they're not doing it. It's very much anxiety based. They literally cannot do what you're asking them to do because their brain is going into panic mode.

And I just think if we had more understanding about that, then we could understand our kids better and just be curious. So, I have a funny story about being curious with your kids. When I was younger, and I'm talking like 10 years old, I was at my grandma's house with my cousins and my aunt was there and my mom was gone.

My cousins did something. I don't remember what they did, but my aunt thought that I did it. And she was chasing me around with a wooden spoon to beat my butt. Because I don't even remember what happened, but. Something made her really mad. And so my grandma, like I'm running away from my aunt yelling, your kids did it.

Your kids did it. I didn't do it, you know? And then my aunt's running after me with this wooden spoon. And my grandma is running after my aunt saying, we don't know what happened. We need to talk to them before we like. Punishment, you know, and I just think my grandma had such a good point. Like be curious, be curious about why your kids did what they did.

First of all, figure out if they actually did what you think they did. And then. Be curious about the circumstances around what happened. Yeah, I just thought that was, I was thinking of that this morning and I was like, that was such a funny thing. Like, I would like to like, be someone watching that scene.

Right? So, yeah. I think even if it, if it, even if it seems obvious, like, I still think to have that pause and really, like, talk about it with your kid. Like, What happened? What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. And even that though with kids with PDA, it can be very triggering to even ask a question. So if something happens and you say, why did you do that?

That's very triggering for them. And so, uh, something that you can use for that is to depersonalize it. So for example, My son knocked a plant off my, um, shelf one day and I came in and I was like, why did you do that? And he like instantly like went into anxiety, you know, panic. Something that I could have done was say, Oh, I see that the plant is on the floor.

Does anyone know what happened? And not target him and not target someone did this. I'm mad. I'm mad. And just say, Oh, that's interesting. The plant is on the floor. I wonder what happened. And then they're more likely to answer because you're not personalizing it to them. They're not on the spot. They can answer if they want to, but they're not on the spot to answer.

So then their body doesn't go into fight or flight. And you're being curious. You're yeah. Yeah. You're being curious. You're not just instantly blaming. Like I knew he's the one that did it because he was throwing her and I know exactly what happened. He was thrown around a, what's it called, a stuffed animal, and it just, I don't know why he threw it through there, but anyway, that's what happened, and I know what happened, and you can know what happened, but you don't have to have that, like, jerk, knee jerk reaction of going instantly to anger and instantly to accusing and, because, you know what, maybe I don't know what happened.

Maybe something happened while I was in my bedroom and somebody else knocked it off the shelf. You never know. Yeah. Um, but these are some practical strategies that you can use for PDA to do that connection before correction and all that means is like connection before correction just means you don't have that knee jerk reaction.

You don't go instantly to anger. You don't go instantly to blaming. You pause and And connect with your child before you correct them. So, if something happens, you don't instantly, like, say, Why did you do that? You're in trouble, you know? Like, get curious. And build the rapport that you need to build with them so that you can have a conversation and then when you're calm, you can explain to them, like, why that wasn't a good choice or talk to them and ask them, why do you think that wasn't a good choice?

You know, um, but yeah, that's one thing that you can do. And the other one is to communicate clearly. Um, so. Yeah, a lot of kids with ABA and autism, they're not going to understand you beating around the bush. They're not going to understand that. They understand clear, concise language. And if you use visual supports, that's even better.

Like that. Don't say, go clean your room. You say, I need your help to pick up your Legos off the floor and into the bin. Yeah. Your clean is very different than my clean. Yes. Um, so being very specific, um, in what you're actually trying to get done is going to be way better than general and subjective terms.

Yeah, for sure. The other day, um, well, every day I tell my kids they have to do things before they can like get on a device or go play at our neighbor's house, which is also my sister in law's house. The other day, my husband actually made a list on a whiteboard and said, you have to do these things before we can go to grandma's house.

And that was the best day my kids have had in a long time because they knew exactly what they needed to do. They crossed it off the list as they did it. And then they could see visually. The things that they had to do, even my daughter that can't read, she saw the list, saw that we were crossing things off and was like, Oh, well, we only have three more things, or we only have two more things.

So definitely like being clear, being concise, even if your kids aren't concise, they still appreciate concise language. Yes, exactly. You know, they may not be, but they understand it better. It's easier for them to take in And understand what you're saying. So yes, clear and concise language.

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Every second Wednesday of the month at noon, Mountain Time. We explore topics like positive discipline strategies, understanding neurodivergence and enhancing self regulation skills for you and your child. Each session includes 20 minutes of expert led teaching followed by a 10 minute Q and a, where you get answers to your most pressing questions.

Best of all, it's completely free. Sign up today and join a community of parents just like you who are ready to transform their challenges into strengths. Visit www. BoiseMusicTherapyCompany. com to register. It's time to feel empowered as a parent. Um, the third thing is offering choices. And this one I feel like is kind of controversial because if you ask my kids to pick between two different things, they're gonna go into fight or flight mode.

But if you say, you know, you can do it now or you can do it later or that you don't ask them to make big decisions, you just like Ask them to make small decisions, then that's better, and that gives them empowerment. But if you like say, what shoes do you want to wear today? And they have like ten pairs of shoes, they're not going to be able to pick the shoes.

But if you pick shoes out for them, and they don't want to put them on, you can say, well do you want to put them on by the door, or put them on on the couch? But they have to get put on somewhere. You're still giving them that choice. Thanks. But it's not like an overwhelming choice, but some kids do really well when you give them a lot of different options to choose from.

Um, so that's once again, you just have to know your kid and, but if they don't want to do something and it has to get done, you can just give them a small choice. Like, do you want to do this here or do you want to do this here, but we're putting on your shoes, you know? So, offering choices, I think.

Offering them a choice when they don't really have a choice, but it makes them think they have a choice. Phrase I teach, I tell this all the time in my training. I learn to phrase things in a way that it sounds like it's their idea. You're going to be a lot more successful and it does take a lot of creative thinking.

Yeah. But it's, it's more likely going to get done that way. Yeah. Versus ask for demand or whatever. Yeah, if you can use declarative language and declarative language is just saying like instead of saying clean your room Or will you clean your room you say? Oh, I see that your room has a lot of Legos on the floor or we've talked about this before but that's Yeah, make observations and then it makes them think it's their idea to go clean it but if it's something that they have to get done right now and and They're not picking up what you're putting down, then you can say we need to clean your room.

Do you want to clean it now, or do you want to clean it in five minutes? Or something like that. Then they still have a choice, but it's not an overwhelming choice. And the next one that we have is managing demands. And there is something called low demand parenting. For PDA kids, it works really well because you're literally lower, lowering the demands that you place on them.

So they're not going into fight or flight as much. I've noticed since I've started doing this with my son, he is happier. He actually asked to do things more with me. Like last Sunday, he was like, I want to help you make dinner. What can I do? And he helped cut up the potatoes. He helped, um, mash the potatoes.

He helped make the gravy. He did all that stuff, I didn't ask him to do any of it, he just saw that I was doing it and he came over and wanted to help. I can guarantee you, a year ago when I wasn't doing low demand parenting, he was so dis regulated that he didn't want to do anything except Play video games.

That's all he ever wanted to do because playing the video games was regulating for him because he was so Dysregulated from having so many demands placed on him, but now he's much happier He complies with the demands that are non negotiable Way more than he used to and I tell him I just say this is non negotiable There are many things that I allow you to make a choice on But this is something that you don't get to make the choice and I tell him why, you know, like if he wants to play, ride his bike in the street, I say that's a non negotiable, you don't get to play in the street because then you'll get ran over, you know, and he hates needles and so I'm just like, you want to go to the hospital and get a needle?

Because that's what's going to happen if you get ran over. Um, but just explaining why, and I don't mean to like make him afraid of hospitals. I just tell him the truth. Like if he did get ran over, he would have to go to the hospital at the very least, you know? So, um, yeah, that's another thing. Just low demand parenting, just find ways that you don't have to make demands, use declarative language.

And if it's not important. Then don't worry about it. Just let it go. I was reading this book about um, PDA and how to help kids with PDA and it said to rate things on a priority scale. If it's a level one priority, then yeah, that's a non negotiable. If it's level two and let's say your kid doesn't want to shower, well that's a level two priority.

They don't have to do it every day. But they do have to do it once a week. So we're still going to work on that, but it's not going to be, if they don't want to shower tonight, we're not going to have a huge battle about it. We're just going to move on with life and make sure they get one shower a week.

If it's a level three priority, nah, we can work on it. But if they don't do it, it's not that big of a deal.

So, that's what low demand parenting has been, and I love it because it's made me rethink what is important and what I've just been conditioned to think is important. And, like, what do you say to parents, because, like, all of this makes sense because of the field that we're in, but, like, I just, I can see parents saying, like, well, then they're getting away.

They're getting their way. Like, I'm losing. Authoritarian credit per se. Like, what do you say to that? Yeah, um, how much, you're not being permissive. I know a lot of parents are worried about being permissive parents and they're not parenting their kid to respect authority and all of that, but you have to realize that kids with PDA don't even, you know, Don't even like recognize authority.

They don't think that ex authority even exists. And so I would rather have a happy kid who's self-regulated than have one that I'm placing all these demands on that society has told me have to be demands and my kid has to do when. We still do the important things, like he is still learning, he still goes to school, and I know a lot of people say, well, they're going to grow up and they won't be able to be in the world.

Well, he's little right now. You work up to that, you know? Yeah. You make him feel safe so that he can learn the skills and then you work up to that and I would just tell parents. There is a difference between low demand parenting and permissive parenting. Permissive parenting is when you just let your kid do whatever they want all the time and you don't worry about what they're doing.

But low demand parenting is just prioritizing what's important and letting go of the things that are not important to you or are not important to your kid and there's just been this weird like societal thing that says this is important and you need your kid to be like this. So, as your kid grows, You can help them learn like, hey, if you do this, like, let's say you break the law, you will go to prison.

And if they break the law and go to prison, they're going to learn that that's what happens, you know? That's so expensive. But a lot of people will say, well, they won't be able to have a job. Well, help them find a job that's not going to place a bunch of demands on them. Have them be an entrepreneur or have them do something that fits their needs.

way of life. They don't, not everyone has to go get a job where, you know, they have a boss and their boss tells them what to do all day. There's a lot of other things that you could do. We don't, we don't have to make them fit into the system. Yeah. Yeah. There, and there are ways to prepare them for the future and without being permissive and without being authoritarian.

You just have to work with them and see what fits and then they'll be able to support themselves. They're going to be fine, but I do believe that there are non negotiables and you have to teach them that there are non negotiables in life, but then there are things that just don't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter.

And I think with the non negotiables, like, and I think just with generally anything when you can explain the why very well. And with. The why, the consequences, you're going to get a lot more buy in versus if you just say, because I said so, because those are the rules. Like, don't say that. You're not getting hurt anywhere.

You really do have to. Be honest and explain the why and the consequences and, um, they're going to be more willing to, to do what needs to be done versus if you just say, because I'm your mother and I said so. Yeah. Yeah. If you just explain to them why something has to be done, they are much more likely to comply with what you're asking them to do.

Yep. Yep. Yep. But if you're just like, because I said so, that doesn't make sense to their brain and they won't accept that and then they won't do what you want them to do because it doesn't make sense to them and I don't blame them. So, um, the last, what? I was like, I hate it. I was like, why do we do it this way?

I was like, that's just how it's done. I'm like, no, I need a why. Yeah. Yeah. So for sure. Um, the last thing that we have per strategy is to use calm down techniques and you can use music for this. You can use. So for example, if a kid is angry. You play angry music and then you slowly bring it down to like calm music and then that helps their body regulate and go down to calm and helps them be calm when they're usually, when they were angry, you know, or you just find what works for them.

Like, do they need to go for a walk? Do they need to run around the house? Do they need, like, I'm talking about the perimeter of the house, not inside the house. Do they need, do you have a trampoline and they can go jump on the trampoline? Do they need to just take some quiet time and go lay down? Do they need to scream into a pillow?

I don't know. There are so many different ways to use coping skills and we're actually going to have an episode on just coping skills, but that is not today. But just using those skills and helping your child learn them when they're calm. So then they can use them when they're angry, or they're upset, or they're sad, or whatever.

Then they'll have the tools they need to help them calm down when they get too overstimulated. Yes. Um, really important to, to teach and model those when they are in a good place. Um, because if you're trying to do that, once there are the escalated or upset or whatever you're it's pointless. You're not.

Yeah. Yeah. And model yourself, you know, just say, I'm really angry right now. So I'm going to blah, blah, blah. I'm going to go do this and say that to your kids and model it for them so they can see you doing what they also need to do. But I know that can be very difficult, but. It needs to be done. Um, yeah, so that's our strategies for, um, working with kids with PDA or, you know, your teens or adults or whatever, building your rapport, communicating clearly, offering choices, managing demands and using calm down techniques.

Um, if you have any questions about any of those, or you have some feedback for us, we'd love to hear it. And if you do have questions about this, you can join the wait list for our parenting summit that's coming in on September 13th. We will be talking about some of this stuff. We will be talking about where to find resources.

We'll be talking about self regulation strategies for yourself, for your kids. I'm super excited for the speakers. We're going to have 15 speakers. And they're each going to speak for five minutes, and then they're going to host a 20 minute breakout room where you can go and ask some questions. And then we have two keynote speakers, um, Gilly Kahn will be a speaker, she's a psychologist, and then I will be a keynote speaker.

So, I am excited for this, and if you want more information, definitely go to our website, and then you can sign up for the waitlist before registration begins in August. Sounds like a lot of helpful resource. It's going to be awesome, but that is it for today. So let us know what you thought, um, you know, tag us on Instagram, leave us a message, do a review, whatever you want.

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