44 - Danielle Sullivan and PDA Strategies 27/05/24

Children often avoid tasks they're given, but some take this to an extreme, strongly resisting any demands. Join Samantha as she talks with Danielle Sullivan about Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) and explains its details. Avoidance can show up in various ways, but Danielle helps parents handle PDA in their children with helpful strategies! Stay tuned!

Here's what to expect on the podcast:

• Danielle's background and involvement in the neurodivergent community.

• What are some effective communication strategies for children with Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)?

• The unique challenges faced by neurodivergent parents.

• Resources or support networks are available for caregivers seeking guidance on communication strategies for PDAs.

• And much more!

About Danielle:

Danielle Sullivan (she/they) is an autistic neurodiversity advocate, parent coach, certified life coach, and host of the Neurodiverging Podcast. Her mission is to further disability awareness and social justice efforts to improve all of our lives as part of the larger world community.

She offers parent and life coaching services, peer support groups, education on neurodiversity-related topics, and a self-paced emotional intelligence course for autistic adults. 

Connect with Danielle Sullivan!

Website: https://www.neurodiverging.com/

Questions, comments, suggestions? Email Danielle at [email protected].

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neurodiverging

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/neurodiverging

Medium: https://neurodiverging.medium.com/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSrb_gDRHmg5ow9AJ…

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielleatneurodivergi…

Cloverleaf: https://app.cloverleaf.me/p/990350-danielle-sulliv…

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/neurodiverging

Connect with Samantha Foote!

Website: www.boisemusictherapycompany.com

Email: [email protected]

Consultation: https://letsmeet.io/boisemusictherapycompany/30-mi…

TRANSCRIPTION

Are you feeling overwhelmed by your child's unique needs? Wondering how to turn daily challenges into moments of growth? Discover answers at the Neurodiversity in Harmony, a Summit for Empowered Parenting, coming on September 13, 2024. Join us for a day filled with expert insights and real life stories from professionals and parents alike.

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Seats are limited so don't miss out. Join our waitlist now to receive exclusive updates and registration details. Visit www. boisimusictherapycompany. com today to secure your spot. Embrace the journey of neurodiverse parenting with us. This podcast is for parents like you, navigating the world of neurodiversity with love and compassion.

I'm a neurodivergent mother of three amazing neurodivergent children and a board certified music therapist. Our mission is to create a supportive space where you feel understood, connected, and inspired. With practical tips, strategies, and resources, we'll help you and your child thrive in your unique way.

Join us as we dive deep into the diverse world of neurodivergent individuals, exploring topics like ADHD, autism, dyslexia, sensory processing challenges, and more. We'll cover it all to empower, educate, and uplift both neurodivergent individuals, And those who walk alongside them. Together, we'll create a world where every brain is valued and celebrated.

We're excited to embark on this enlightening journey with you. We are your hosts, Samantha Foote and Lauren Ross. And this is the Every Brain is Different podcast. Welcome to the Every Brain is Different podcast. Danielle Sullivan. And Danielle is an autistic neurodiversity advocate. She's a parent coach, certified life coach, and host of the Neuro Diverging podcast.

Her mission is to further disability awareness and social justice efforts to improve all of our lives as part of the larger world community. She offers parent and life coaching services.

So Danielle, I am so excited to have you on the show. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here today. Awesome. Okay. So can you tell us more about how you're involved in the neurodivergent community? Sure. So the short way to say it is that I was diagnosed autistic in my early thirties after my first child was diagnosed when he was about three.

Um, and I've since had another child who's also neurodivergent. And at that time there were like no parenting resources for autistic adults. There was lots for neurotypical adults with Neurodivergent children. Um, but at the time I was just really trying to learn a lot about how to parent in a way that supported me and my needs.

And also obviously gave my kids. What they needed to thrive. Um, and so I started the podcast and then kind of grew from there. Um, now there are so many parenting resources for, um, autistic adults, which is really exciting. Yeah. So that's how I started to get involved. And then just as I learned more and as I grew more as a person and learned more about disability justice, I've just become more and more involved in the field.

Yes, I love that. I love that you want to support neurodivergent parents who are raising neurodivergent children Because you have to remember to take care of yourself as well as take care of your children Yeah, there's a lot of ways that neurotypical and neurodivergent parents are the same in our challenges and struggles but there are some Additional challenges that and obviously neurodivergent encompasses a huge range of folks, right?

But there tend to be additional challenges Um, in being somebody who has your own needs and maybe a sensitive nervous system, or maybe, um, you know, executive dysfunction challenges and you're trying to organize three people's calendars now, you know, it can be a lot. So that's, I think it's, it's worth having, um, support for, for all groups.

Right. Yeah, definitely. Um, can you talk a little bit about how to support yourself? As a parent and when maybe your child's needs are different than your own. So let's say for example, they're a sensory seeker and you're a sensory avoider. Like, how do you handle that? Absolutely. Um, so we call this competing access needs, right?

Where you need your quiet room to, to chill out and regulate and be calm and feel better. And your kiddo needs all of the input all of the time. Um, in, in, and that specific situation I will say is, is when I see a lot, um, it depends, you know, on your kiddo, but a lot of what we do is first of all, start with.

Talking at an age appropriate level about how you have different needs. Um, not in a, you know, you don't have to blame anybody about it, but you can just say, you know, mama really needs quiet time where my brain gets really angry. So, you know, I'm going to create space where every hour I take five minutes in my room, right.

Or however you're, you got to adjust it to your own family. Right. Um, kiddo, what does, what do you need to feel better? And even if they're not sure, even if they're really young, it, you know, opens up a conversation so they can talk to you as they're processing it. And it also, sometimes they tell you exactly what they need, which is amazing.

And it helps them begin to learn that they should advocate for themselves, that we expect them to advocate, that we want to know, um, what they need. Um, so that even when they encounter other people in the world who don't want them to advocate, they can still stand up for what they need and take care of themselves that way.

So that's one, um, piece that's really important. That those require the parent to understand their own needs and be willing to actually take that break, um, which is often a totally different pile that we have to get into in coaching because it's really hard, especially if you're your kid's main person, um, for whatever reason, and you're co regulating a lot and you're, um, being their executive function for them, um, especially if they're younger or have significant challenges, it's hard to bring yourself to step away.

Okay. But I always say that if you're not taking care of yourself and you fall over, then your whole family is going to fall over, right? Or at least you and your, your kiddo might fall over. And so it is really important not to think of it as selfishness, but to think of it as the, you're leading, right?

You're leading your family. Which direction do you want them to go? Your kids are going to learn from you. Do you want them when they're older to take the break they need or to push themselves till they fall into burnout? There's Yes, that's so important. Just modeling what you want your kid to do, because if they're like, let's say they're in school or something, and they don't, Advocate for themselves for the things that they need, then they'll burn out and then they won't do well in school.

And then it creates this shame and then it's just like a downward, downward spiral or spiral. I can not talk today. Okay. You're with me. Yeah. Um, I love that. And just, um, the co regulation that you talked about. So co regulation, can you, um, just explain that for people that don't know what it is? Sure. Um, so the, the basic premise is that, um, humans have feelings and, um, sometimes our feelings are, we're very calm and chill, and sometimes we get very excited.

And then sometimes we go into more than excitement, which is like a meltdown, right? Um, or temper tantrum, which I don't really love that word, but people know what it means. Right. Um, and you see even adults sometimes hit. That high level of arousal or excitement where they're just like kind of losing it.

Um, and it can be very normal. Um, so regulation is our, the skills we have as humans to bring ourselves back down when we're too excited, it can be positive or negative excitement. It doesn't have to be like, you know, you're thrilled about the parade. It can be like, you're very angry and it's, you know, or there's too much sensory input, right?

That'll dysregulate a lot of them. So we have what we call self regulation skills, which are. We have learned, uh, most of us anyway, as adults to, um, kind of take our excitement and put it away briefly and take it back out later when it's a more like reasonable social space to, to engage with it. Um, you'll see adults, I mean, adults will pace adults will.

Um, a lot of us will hum or sing or, you know, talk to the cat. We'll call a friend. We'll take a walk outside. We'll look at the fish in the pond. Well, we have things we do when we want to calm ourselves down. We also have things to do when we want to hype ourselves up. Like right before an interview, if we're too chill, we might want to sort of get higher and be like, I'm, you know, especially as an autistic person before something like this, I'm always like, okay, you need to communicate because it's, um, sometimes just vocally.

And so you need to be a little bit more exaggerated, right? So that's regulation is getting yourself in the emotional state. You want co regulation is when we perform regulation with somebody else. And they, it can be kind of a mutual or it can be, there's one main person. So with a child, usually you'd say the parent is supporting the child to learn the skills, to bring themselves back down or to pick themselves a little bit up, to get to that emotional space.

That is. Um, Sort of reasonable or expected for the social situation or the need that's present. Did that help? I know I could be a little academic, so you have, you have to catch me if . No, I loved it. I just know that sometimes we throw around words and people might be like, uh, what does that mean? Oh, for sure.

Because I do that too. So I've noticed that, um, when my excitement level gets up there in the anger zone, um, I always do that when. I am impatient with what my kid is doing. So let's say we're late. Let's say I want them to do something right now. And I have to wait for them to do it. Like I go from zero to S to a hundred in like five seconds, because they, I don't like to be late.

And so that is something that I need to regulate myself on and understand that. Maybe we need to start getting ready earlier, but it's always like everyone is ready and all we have to do is get our shoes on and walk out the door and children cannot do that quickly. And so I'm just like, we have to go right now, you know, and so I'm just learning.

That self regulation first, I think learning to regulate yourself, like you said, and then you can help your children regulate. Because if you get excited, then they're going to get excited. And then it just keeps building and building. But if they're like, uh, you know, an excitement level that good or bad, that's not quite appropriate.

And you stay down here. Then you can help bring them down to where they need to be. And I just, I love that because you can help your child either go one way or the other, and it all depends on what you're doing, but it can be so hard when you're neurodivergent yourself or neurotypical and just. You're just frustrated, you know, and so, anyway, I just love that, that you are in charge of you and you can help your child learn to be in charge of themselves too.

Exactly. And I think, you know, there are plenty of adults who learned emotional regulation skills in their homes, but there's plenty of us who did not and are kind of, you know, we're thrown into the world. And. Yeah. hold down jobs and we love our kids, but we, we just never built those skills. And so it can be, if you have a child, especially a neurodivergent child or a higher needs child or a sensory sensitive child.

Um, they're going to put you through your paces with emotional regulation. And so it's good to have tactics and to think through, you know, for example, I have a lot of clients who say they go from zero to 60 and then when we look at it, and I'm not saying this about you, but just in general, that they're actually going from like 45 to 60 in that last chunk, but there was this buildup earlier in the day.

And so if you can learn to, um, pay attention to your own state a little bit more, and there's lots of ways to do that, sometimes you can. Sort of catch yourself before you flip over. And the other thing I think is a lot of parents are taught that if a kid isn't performing the way, big scare quotes, the way we want them to, they're not doing their shoes right now that we should put on the pressure, right?

We should talk to them more. We should, um, you know, grump at them. We should give them some of our, our nervousness or excitement or, um, that, and that can dis regulate a kid's nervous system, right? Cause they're a little bit more sensitive than ours and they haven't, they don't have perfect duration skills.

And so, like you said, um, I think you said it beautifully that keeping, right, it doesn't mean you can't have any emotions, right? Uh, you don't have to be a, uh, you know, a Zen master on the hill, but just coming at it from a sort of neutral, positive stance of, you know, I noticed you're having trouble with your shoes.

What help can I give you? Right. Or what's going on? And. Um, trying to downplay your stress at getting there on time can actually make the whole thing faster. Um, and you'll get a more regulated, you know, and you'll feel better. So, but it takes practice. It's not like easy to do if you haven't. Yeah, for sure.

Um, can we talk a little bit about how to work with kids who have PDA or pathological demand avoidance? Because I feel like this. It's a very important topic where you're asking them to do something and the more you ask, the more dysregulated they get because you're placing a demand on them. And so by placing the demand, they're already unregulated because they go into like fight or flight when they get a demand placed on them.

So how can we help our kids who might have PDA? Sure. So I'm actually a PDA er and so is one of my kids, so we, and we work with this a lot in coaching. Um, Um, so like you said, um, you know, why we were just talking about regulating the nervous system and a PDA or is somebody who, whether they were born that way, or they've experienced some kind of trauma, um, their nervous system is like extremely sensitive and just a little thing will kind of knock it off of its regulation.

And so they are using a lot of energy. We are using a lot of energy every single day to try to keep ourselves. In a space where we can, like, make decisions and be creative and, like, talk to humans, um, without overusing our energy and demands exert, um, this kind of pressure on us that, like you said, knocks that dysregulation right out in a lot of times.

So, um, especially with younger kids, there, there are a lot of tactics. One is that, um, the one I always look at first with clients is, um, how much do you have your PDA? For PDA or child doing, um, day to day. Some kiddos have very high energy and can do sports and do extracurriculars and go to three therapies and go to music lessons and all these things.

And that's fantastic. But some kids, um, the kind of standard childhood like blueprint that we think we're supposed to be modeling our kiddo into is too much for them. And that's not something to be ashamed about. It's just, you know, how people are different. So looking at, can we reduce. Activity, not activity level, but like places where demands will be asked, right?

Um, if they have to go to school, fine, but some families will choose to homeschool or alternative school or unschool. Um, if they are having trouble at the soccer team, could we do more free play instead? Um, if they're, I'm trying to think of other examples, you know, it depends on the range, but just giving them more free unstructured time so they can regulate more and practice those skills.

Um, is, is a really big piece, and I'll just say that in general, I tend to think that parents with good intention, um, build up those academic skills really early, but then don't teach kids emotional intelligence and regulation skills. My tendency is to let's work on those emotional intelligence skills first.

We can always catch up with academics, and that's a very personal decision, so you don't have to listen to me on that, but that's sort of my thing. And then the second thing we can do is just watch how we communicate with PDA or students. Um, all brains have a negativity bias. We, we notice negative things more often than we notice positive things.

That's just how human brains are. So giving a lot of, um, you know, not direct phrase, cause that will like dysregulate the nervous system, but just noticing things that are going well in their presence, like, you know, saying, Oh, I really like how someone brought their dishes up in the sink. Or I really like how, you know.

This music is going, it makes me feel really happy. And again, just modeling, noticing positivity can help. Um, and then talking to your kids with indirect language, which is like the go to for a lot of us, but it really works, um, Instead of saying, I need you to, and I will say some kids respond really well, even PDA kids do, I need you to do this for me.

It's really important. Um, but some kids you'll do better with an indirect, like this needs to happen before X, Y, Z time, or, um, in order to do the next thing we, we need to do this, how can we do this together and making it more about like the team. Um, then about them specifically, um, and kind of spreading the demand out among a family group, for example.

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I love those suggestions. Um, I've noticed that I think someone in my life has PDA, but I don't think that they know they have PDA because when they are asked to do something, they're like, well, it's going to do it, but you asked me to do it. And now I'm not going to do it, you know? And so I was like, well, if you're going to do it anyway.

Like, why don't you just do it? Well, you asked me to do it. Now I don't want to do it. And I'm like, okay. And so, um, and then if I say like, we need to do this, they hear you need to do this. And so is there a way to like, help them understand that when you say we, You actually mean we, and it's not a negative thing on them.

It's not saying that they need to do it by themselves. It's not saying it's their fault because I've noticed that with my son too, that if I say like, we need to clean up the house, he's like, why are you going to help me? And I'm like, I just said, we need to do this. So yeah, I might just, it would depend on the age of the person, right?

Um, because there is some like skill level difference. But often it's just about sort of going one step further, like we need to clean up the house. I was thinking I would take the dishes. What would you like, you know, to do? Um, and you are being a little direct, but it's also, there's no, for me, it's always like, I can say you, if there's no time limit, if it's a time limit, I'm going to be indirect, right?

Because PDA is another way to. For, um, understand it is pervasive demand for autonomy, right? We just want to decide what we're doing and that regulates our nervous systems better than being told what we should be doing. And so, although some PDAs are extremely sensitive and we just can't push that hard.

Um, a lot of us are, you know, please don't give me a time limit and tell me exactly how I have to do the thing, but I'll be okay doing the thing if I get to decide when and how I do it. Right. And so figuring out what your trigger is, what the trigger is for your specific PDA or with some it's time with some it's the exact how to, um, and also just looking like a lot of PDA ers have other, um, other skills that we might want to up level, right?

Like a lot of PDA ers have executive function challenges. And so. Sometimes we think it's the PDA kicking in, but it's actually like, Oh, they literally didn't remember that thing. Their working memory isn't that great, or they need, you know, we need to set up a reminder system that they'll be comfortable with, which can be similar.

So sometimes we actually need to step back and just sort of check in and say, you know, this is a complex individual, all humans are complex. So is it definitely like, am I sure if the PDA is right, or could it be some other thing? The brain is doing brains are, are complicated and like to throw us for loops.

Right. So, um, yeah, so that's what we would, as a, you know, if I was coming in as a coach, that's what I would be doing is also assessing like what else could be going on as blocking this, this task. Yes. I love that. I love that you said it can be time related or other things. And if you put a time limit on them.

They might not perform in quotes as well as you want them to. I know My son at school. They always wanted to use a timer with him. They're like, well, it will help him know how much time he has left and I'm like he Freaks out when you bring a timer out like it just it just makes him so anxious I'm like, please do not use timers with him.

So I'll tell him You You know, but he likes setting timers for himself. Yes. So if I say, yeah, but he gets to decide, so he'll say how much longer until dinner and I'll say, I don't know, like 20 minutes, he will set a timer for 20 minutes. And if dinner is not done in 20 minutes, he'll be like, you lied to me.

I'm like, Oh my gosh, I didn't lie to you. I said about 20 minutes. And so, but if I say like you have 20 minutes to clean your room and I set a timer, guaranteed. Meltdown because I'm setting the expectation on him. I'm setting that you, you have to do it in this amount of time, where if I just said, please go clean your room, he'd be like, okay.

And he'd go get it done. But if I give him a time limit and then there's other people that might not respond well to please go get your room clean. You might say, Oh, your room is looking really dirty right now. You know, what can we do about that? Or just say your room is looking dirty right now. And they might say, okay, I'm going to go clean it.

But I know for my son, if I said your room is looking dirty right now, he'd be like, okay. And then like, you didn't, yeah. There's no ask, right. And I think that's, it's really tricky. And it's not like, there's a reason that we don't have like, I don't know, a book that I can give you because there's, The, a lot of PDA, PDA ers and maybe all of them, we're still, the jury's still out, are autistic.

A lot of us autistics need a direct statement. I am not going to pick up what you're putting down. I need you to say, I need you to go clean the room. Right. Um, and having a PDA profile with that kind of brain that needs a direct statement is really hard. Cause like I just said, what you're supposed to do for PDA, what you see in all the websites and, and the counselors will tell you is indirect statements, right?

But I, I'm kind of like your son. I would just be like, yes, you're right. It is dirty. I'm glad you told me. Thank you. Yeah. Like, yeah, I would, I would know that I was missing something, but I wouldn't know what you wanted. And so it is really about, um, you know, figuring out your exact person. I liked what you said about the school because, um, that's an example, right?

Where I think they think it must be an executive dysfunction issue. And as a PDA issue, which is kind of the opposite of what we were talking about before. So sometimes you do have to work realistically. And I, I think also the difference between someone else setting a timer for me and me setting a timer is like the difference between.

A tiger jumping out at me unexpectedly and me choosing to go up to a tiger in the zoo that I know is like contained like the tiger is still threatening, but I get to choose this one. And the other one somebody else just like threw the tiger at me and they're both going to cause a threat response, but very different ones you know and ones that feel more or less in control.

So, yes, yes it is. Um, and it's not even really diagnosed in the US, which I did find a psychologist that does PDA diagnosing, which is amazing, but, um, definitely like she doesn't take insurance. So it's kind of out of reach for a lot of people to get that testing done. But, um, but you know, my, my son's occupational therapist was the one that told us, you know, I think he might have PDA and I was like, what is PDA?

And so, and once we understood. What PDA is and how his specific type, um, how we work with him. He has been so much happier, less anxious all the time. And it's not even that he's doing what I want him to do. It's that he is happier. He's like enjoying life more, you know, and. I just look back at his early life and I just feel so bad that like I was doing what they told me to do, you know, for autistic kids, like you make, you make direct statements, you use a timer, you use a reward system, you do all this stuff, right?

But it's different for him. And it's, you know, he still does use some of that stuff, but then bringing in the PDA profile and understanding that when you place a demand on him, he goes into fight or flight mode. I think is huge because his school was just like, well, he's just being. Just being defiant like he did get diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, and I'm like, I don't think he has ODD I think that he literally like can't do what you're asking him to do because he's so anxious about it that he can't do it So it's just really interesting.

I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding and even the you know pathological demand avoidance makes it sound like Um, either it's something you can't control because it's part of your pathology or it's something you could control, but you're being stubborn and difficult and you're challenging your kid.

And neither of those is exactly what's going on. And in most cases, when we see a kiddo come in with defiance or big scarecrow behavior, um, there's some kind of either there's a nervous system dysregulation, like the big one happening. Um, um, In which case, like OT is a great fit, you know, coaching or therapy or other things can give you a fit or, and, or there's some kind of trauma in the background that, and when you come at it from a trauma informed, um, lens, it's much easier to see these behaviors as, um, your kiddo is trying their best to do the thing, and it's just not able to, uh, to get there, whether that's a skills gap or, you know, some nervous system healing that has to happen or something else.

But, um, it's never that the kid is, like, not trying hard, so that's just not, that's just not a thing. Um, yeah. I definitely think that kids who have these issues are expending more energy to do what you want them to do rather than just being defiant and expending less energy. And once you understand that, I think you can have, like, a whole new concept of empathy for them and being able to work with them.

I think there's also a piece of having, as a parent, this idea of what your kid was going to be like when they were a baby, and kind of needing to let that go, which can be very difficult, but like, sometimes you don't want a kid who's going to do every single thing that everybody tells them to do, right?

These are our CEOs in the future. These are the people who are going to be our, our next innovative leaders. But, and, and if you have a child who's not doing what you're asking anyway, you might as well parent in a way that lets them be happier and not do it versus, you know, constantly in, like you said, fight or flight mode and not do it.

And that, but that does involve letting go a little bit of outcomes and that can be really challenging. But I think it's an important part of being a successful PDA parent. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Do you have any resources for parents? Yeah. Absolutely. That may be looking for like free downloads or recommendations or anything like that.

Sure. So, um, outside of me, I can highly recommend the PDA Society out of the UK. They have tons of downloads and just like piles of resources. And then Diana Gould just started the PDA Society of North America within the past year, I think. Um, so it is still accruing resources, but it's excellent. So those are two go tos, um, that I send clients to.

Um, at NeuroDiverging, we have a free workbook on creating a sensory friendly space and reducing sensory overwhelm. So if you or your kiddo are, um, feeling like that would be helpful to you, um, you can sign up for our mailing list on our website at neurodiverging. com and grab that workbook. Um, and we also actually have a parent circle inside our Patreon.

I'm not trying to plug so many things, but we're just a little bit of a mixed up group over here. Um, it's like three bucks a month and you meet with other parents who are neurodivergent. And we talk about our neurodivergent kids. We have workshops. So, um, so those are all resources. And folks can always email me and I'll send you, send you, um, you know, Every family is different.

And so these are the general things I recommend, but, uh, there's lots of stuff out there if you're struggling. Um, don't struggle just at like, we, we have resources. So yes, yes, there are resources out there for people. And I love that you mentioned Diane gold. Um, we actually had her on the podcast. She was one of our very first interviews, so we'll link to her.

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah. She was. So awesome. Just so like, how can I help you? I will help in any way I can. And she just wants to help people and help them understand PDA. And I, she's just amazing. So, yes, absolutely agree. Go listen to that podcast. Yeah, so she has two episodes. She did a mini episode and then she did a longer episode with us because she was part of our launch.

So we'll link to that in the show notes. Um, but yes, but thank you. Oh, our last question. What do you do for fun? Oh gosh, so I am a very introverted autistic person. I just have to put that out there. So I'm a little bit boring, but I, I love my reading my books and I love my garden and taking walks around the neighborhood and looking for birds.

Those are my things. I'm kind of a nature, a nature person. That's awesome. Those are my fun. My fun. I love it. I love hanging out with my kids, like, it's kind of, I don't know, goopy or heartfelt or smooshy or something. I can't think of the word, but, um, it really makes me happy. It brings a lot of joy. No, I love that.

I, I like hanging out with my kids too, so, you know, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, thank you for coming on this show. We really appreciate your time. Oh, of course. Thank you. so much for having me. I really, it's nice to talk about this stuff and I hope it helps folks out. Yeah, definitely. We've had a lot of interest in PDAs, so hopefully this will help people.

What were your biggest takeaways, Lauren? My biggest takeaways, I had a couple. Um, first, um, going to the co regulation and regulating, um, I, I think we've mentioned this a whole bunch of times throughout different episodes, but you can't help someone else regulate themselves if you can't regulate yourself, um, first.

And so going back to that and also, She, she mentioned that sometimes we think that when we take time for ourselves that we are being selfish or, you know, we're not a good parent or whatever, and you got to get away from that mindset and that, you know, it's not selfish. You're taking care of yourself, which then again, you're modeling.

For your children to learn to advocate and take care of themselves and knowing that it's okay to say, I'm not okay right now. I need a break or whatever it might be. Um, and so that was a, a big one that, uh, I took away. And then, you know, we're talking about PDA and how to interact with them and. Uh, a lot of this, how we interact is something that I, uh, teach in my training for our staff that are going out and just working with individuals with, with disabilities.

Anyways, is, um, uh, that observation or learning to phrase things that makes it sound like it's their idea or you're not putting an expectation or demand on them. Um, and I actually use my brother as an example. He really struggles with taking out the trash. And if someone is like, Hey, you need to take out your trash.

He's like, no, I'll get to it. And he never does it or say, Hey, like asking him like, Hey, can you please take out your trash again? Going to the, I'll do it later. But if I peek in his room and I go, whoa, your trash looks like it's getting so full and then I walk away. He's more likely to take out his trash because I didn't put that expectation or demand and I, I think you can use that with lots of things and lots of people, even if they don't necessarily have that, that PDA profile.

Um, I think just, you know, shifting how we communicate in general, especially if we're trying to get things done. Um, is, is something that I took away and something that I use and teach. So. Yeah, definitely. You just have to figure out what works for the person that you're talking to or working with because, like we said, sometimes you might say, hey, your trash is, you know, It's getting kind of full and they'll be like, yep, yep, it is.

Yeah. You'll go back later and be like, why didn't you take out your trash? Well, you didn't tell me to take out my trash. And I think it's going back to, again, everything has to be personalized and individualistic. And again, I mean, this, why our, our title is every brain is different because it is, and again, what works for others is not going to work for this person.

And, and it is important to really. Get to know and individualize and all of that stuff and yeah, you can hear all this general try this and try this, but you really have to to dig deep and figure out what's going to work for you, what's going to work for your child or whoever it is that you might be supporting.

Yeah, yeah. Um, a couple other things that she said that I really liked was helping your child learn to advocate for themselves. Mm hmm. Um, I was super proud of my son this week. He has been in Lego club at school and he came home and he says, I don't want to go to Lego club anymore. I said, why? And he's like, because the teacher is singling me out and she's being rude to me and she's yelling at me and I don't want to go anymore.

And my first initial thing was like, well, you should just try it and keep going. Like we, you made a commitment. You need to go. But I'm going to talk to the teacher and like, figure out what happened. But if he doesn't want to go, I'm not going to make him go. He advocated for himself. He told me what his need was.

Does it matter if he goes to Lego club? Absolutely not. It does not matter if he goes. That was something that I signed him up for. That was supposed to be fun and he is just not enjoying it. And so why would I force him to keep going, you know, and I was so proud of himself that he advocated for himself and he was just like, I need this, you know, and he can come home and play with his Legos, like it's fine.

And then the other thing that she said was letting go of the child that you thought you would have. So. Yes. Yes. So when I had kids, I thought I would raise them like I was raised where I was in choir. I was in sports like all year round. You know, I did piano lessons. I did all the things and that just does not work for my kids.

They want to be home. They want, yeah, they want to be home. They want to. Have free time. They want to have screen time. They want to go outside and play, have just the unstructured time. If I put them in, like, for example, I put my son in soccer. He hated soccer, first of all, because there's a lot of demands and he has PDA.

And so, and I think that you definitely don't get me wrong. I think you definitely need to learn. To take demands so that you can be in society because society will place demands on you. But if it's for something that's supposed to be fun and you're supposed to enjoy it, like. I put him in soccer. He did not enjoy it.

We put him in baseball. He hated it, but we'll go outside and an afternoon and he'll be like, let's play baseball. Let's play soccer. You know, he's still playing. He's just not in an environment. That's not right for him. Yeah. Yeah. Demanding environment. Yeah. It's not the way the fun. Yeah, exactly. And it's not the right environment for him right now.

Who's to say that he can't learn those skills that maybe he'll want to join again someday. He's actually on a football team right now that's through Game Changers and he is thriving in that environment because it's specifically for kids with disabilities and they cater to those kids and they don't place as many demands on them.

And so they're learning the game, they're getting the exercise, they're on a team, but it's meeting them at their level. Yeah. Which I think is great. Um, I think also with the, you know, letting go, you know, she also mentioned, uh, you know, if you have a PDA or, and you know that they're not going to do something and like, why, why keep fighting it and you both be miserable, like just kind of move on and, and, and have fun and at least make sure that they're happy.

Um, yeah, with, with certain things, like, is this really worth? The battle that you know, you know, inevitably you're not going to win. So let's just kind of let it go. And I mean, we can't let go of all the things all the time, but yeah, you're going to, everyone's going to be happier if we learn to do that.

Yeah. So I like that she kind of talked about or mentioned that. So. Yeah, for sure. So thank you all for listening to our episode today. I loved having Danielle on. I hope that you got as much wisdom from her as I did and let us know what you think of it. Do you want to hear more about this? What, what do you want to hear about?

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