39 - Esther Thane and Meeting in the Music 22/04/24

Here's what to expect on the podcast:

• How Esther discovered music therapy as a career path.

• What does a holistic approach to music therapy entail?

• Esther tailors music therapy techniques to meet the unique needs of neurodivergent individuals.

• Self-care is essential for therapists and parents to maintain regulation and presence.

• And much more!

About Esther:

Esther Thane, BMT, MTA, AVPT, has specialized since 1996 in neurodivergent individuals & diverse needs. After over a decade on faculty at Capilano University, Esther continues to present at conferences, publish, consult, & hold workshops/in-services. In 2014, Esther completed Dr. Diane Austin's (Music Psychotherapy Center, New York) training program in Advanced Vocal Psychotherapy. Her publication in the book: Voicework in Music Therapy focuses on her innovative method of Vocal-Led Relaxation for Children with Autism. Esther created the Meet In The Music© (MITM) music therapy curriculum, which is utilized by music therapists globally. Esther is the Executive Director of ET Music Therapy in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, where the team serves 200+ clients in their 2 studios, in schools, group homes, in-home, adult day programs, and telehealth.

Esther has received numerous awards, including:

1. “Iconic Women Creating a Better World For All Award”, presented by the Women Economic Forum in New Delhi, India (2017)

2. “Peer Recognition Award for Innovation and Advocacy”, presented by the Canadian Association For Music Therapy (2021)

3. Luminous Alumni Award of Excellence, presented by Capilano University (2024)

Connect with Esther Thane!

Website: https://www.etmusictherapy.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/et-music-therapy/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/etmusictherapy

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/etmusictherapy/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@etmusictherapy

Connect with Samantha Foote!

Website: www.boisemusictherapycompany.com

Email: [email protected]

Consultation: https://letsmeet.io/boisemusictherapycompany/30-mi…

TRANSCRIPTION

This podcast is for parents like you, navigating the world of neurodiversity with love and compassion. I'm a neurodivergent mother of three amazing neurodivergent children and a board certified music therapist. Our mission is to create a supportive space where you feel understood, connected, and inspired.

With practical tips, strategies, and resources, we'll help you and your child thrive in your unique way. Join us as we dive deep into the diverse world of neurodivergent individuals exploring topics like ADHD, autism, dyslexia, sensory processing challenges, and more. We'll cover it all to empower, educate, and uplift both neurodivergent individuals and those who walk alongside them.

Together we'll create a world where every brain is valued and celebrated. We're excited to embark on this enlightening journey with you. We are your hosts, Samantha Fuh and Lauren Ross, and this is the Every Brain is Different podcast.

Welcome to the Every Brain is Different podcast. We're here with Esther Thain. Esther has specialized since 1996 in neurodivergent individuals and diverse needs. After over a decade on faculty at Capilano University, Esther continues to present at conferences, publish, consult, and hold workshops and in services.

In 2014, Esther completed Dr. Diane Austin's Music Psychotherapy Center. In New York training program in advanced vocal psychotherapy, her publication in the book voice work in music therapy focuses on her innovative method of vocal lead relaxation for children with autism. Esther created me in the music music therapy curriculum, which is utilized by music therapists globally Esther is executive director of et music therapy in Vancouver, British Columbia.

Canada, where the team serves 200 plus clients in their two studios in schools, group homes in home. Adult day programs and telehealth. Esther has received numerous awards, including the iconic women creating a better world for all award presented by the Women Economic Forum in New Delhi, India in 2017, the Peer Recognition Award for Innovation and Advocacy presented by the Canadian Association for Music Therapy in 21, 2021, and the Luminous Alumni Award of Excellence presented by Capilano University in 2024.

Welcome, Esther. We're so excited to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. It's a great way to start my Friday 

morning. 

I 

love it. Quite the list of accomplishments. So well done. Well, I'm old. You're like, I had the time.

So Esther, can you tell us a little bit more about your experience, your journey to where you are today and just how you got to where you are? 

Well, how many hours have you got as, as every, you know, music therapist has an origin story. I guess mine is that, um, I knew I was always going to do music, uh, but I didn't want to do the traditional music paths, like become a music teacher, a music educator, uh, performer, even though I, I do perform, but.

I didn't want that to be my trajectory and, um, it was just suggested to me, music therapy on a whim. And I just kind of went for it. I had no idea what it entailed at all. Um, but I just, um, I just, you know, applied to university program. And I've really never looked back in that first day of class where they showed us.

One of those old black and white Nordoff Robbins videos of working with autistic kids and diverse kids. I knew that that was going to be my channel. Um, and that was going to be my specialization. Um, the autistic and neurodivergent population has always fascinated me. They've always amazed me. And they continue to amaze me.

So it's never a dull day as a music therapist working with neurodivergent individuals, and it's incredibly rewarding, um, to help support them and just be a guide, um, with them on their developmental personal journey. 

I love it. We are the same. Like, I wanted to be, I didn't know anything about music therapy, and I knew I wanted to do something in music and I wanted to do something in psychology, but I didn't want to be a teacher and I didn't want to be a performer.

And I'm like, what else can I do and then I randomly found music therapy on this website that, looking back on it, it did not describe music therapy well. But it got me into the field. So that's cool. It 

was enough to hook you, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it was like this new thing that we'd never heard about that we went, you know, I think every music therapist, when they hear about music therapy first, it's like, all of a sudden you feel, okay, that's home.

That's where I live. Yes. They created this career just for me. 

For sure. Yeah, for sure. I love it. Um, can you just give us some examples of what you do with kids and adults who are neurodivergent? Like, how do you do music therapy with them? 

Well, I'm very. You know, as I'm sure many of us are. I'm very holistic in my approach.

My philosophies come from sensory integration, theory of mind, um, green span, educational kinesiology, your rhythmics. Um, and I kind of try to bring that all together. I was trained a lot very closely with speech therapists, with occupational therapists. And I, I'm a real true believer that, uh, kids will integrate.

new skills and new information if it's coming from a place of inner motivation. So, you know, we do know of course, a huge fundamental principle of music therapy is that we're using a client preferred music, but I kind of take that. To the next step where, you know, my team and I, we will assess for three to four weeks and just throw a bunch of different types of music experiences at the client and see what sticks.

What do they gravitate towards? Are they more rhythmic based? Are they more movement based? Do they prefer strings instruments or, uh, stringed instruments or keyboard? Um, do they, are they the kind of individual that just likes to jam and improvise from the moment they walk through the door until the moment they leave, or do they prefer really structured music activities and interventions that help reassure them because of the routine?

Um, With maybe visual reinforcers and picture cards, etc. So we kind of build the treatment plan around that. Um, and then of course negotiate on a weekly basis using a schedule visual schedule again to help reassure them and Um, assistance, self regulation and engagement with the individual. So it's really, it's really a holistic approach as I think most of us as music therapists do, uh, but it's also one where I really feel as of course.

Often, kids who are neurodivergent, especially if they're non verbal, they really struggle with sharing when they are dysregulated and what is dysregulating them. And time and time again, I think when I am supervising and supporting my staff or I am presenting, um, and doing in services or workshops, the, the number one question is, what do you, how do you understand behaviors?

What do you do with behaviors? What do you do when a child just you feel like you're following them around the room and they don't even have any acknowledgement that you're even in the space, or they will just throw every instrument down that you give them, or they're in crisis, and they're screaming, and they're And so, um, They're clearly not regulated and they're in discomfort.

And I really feel that the number one place to go to first is to look at the physiological needs. And it's kind of where my, you know, background with sensory integration comes into play. I really feel like when a behavior occurs, it's because. There's maybe something going on physiologically. Do they need some proprioceptive input?

Are they over aroused? Are they overstimulated? Are they need a vestibular, um, input? Um, do they need complete withdrawal of the stimuli? And just given a moment to pause. Do they need the reassurance to, um, I also really, uh, believe in intention as a music therapist and especially with the neurodivergent, uh, community, I feel that they are, they're just operating on a different plane than we are.

And I'm very jealous of it because I think we all were there originally as. a species where we intuited more, we had more telepathy, we had, we picked up on people's energy more. And I think perhaps, and this is, you know, just a theory of mine. So, uh, don't crucify me about it if you believe it. Uh, but I, I really feel that because So many individuals who are neurodivergent struggle with understanding neurotypical societies, social cues, understanding the fine nuances of communication, that just like the person who is maybe deaf, they increase their other senses, and I feel like neurodivergent individuals pick up on that energy flow more.

And just when, you know, when I think about, for example, when I was younger and practicing, I would, you know, first kind of point my finger at my clients when I didn't have a good day. And what is with the clients today? Oh, it must be barometric pressure change. And, you know, sometimes that is. the actual reason, um, because they have those incredible sensitivities to our world, rhythm, and environment, et cetera.

But I always used to kind of first point my finger at them and what was wrong with the clients and why was my day so bad? Session after session, I wasn't connecting. And, and then a light kind of went off in my, brain at some point. And I started to look inwardly and realized that it was my energy that wasn't organized.

And that I wasn't coming to the sessions and to the interactions, these beautiful human interactions with a more Zen energy. And once I started organizing my energy before that client walked through the door, that never happened again. And another example is, you know, if a child is. Nonverbal, and they're in crisis and they're crying, even if you don't even know what their level of receptive language comprehension is, to be able just with your intention in your voice and in your words, say, I know, you know, I know you're not, you're not feeling good right now.

I'm here to help you. And that started just. opening up this realm of possibility. And it kind of trickled down and permeated through other facets of my life as well. You know, I had a, a very great, um, colleague and friend that I used to teach with at, uh, Capilano university up here in Vancouver, and she's done energy work for like 35, 40 years.

And I was always complaining to her that my, um, That I was always having issues with my computer. That it was always crashing, that it would never do what I want. It was losing things that I wrote down. I would ask, you know, my husband to come into the room and I would walk away from the computer and it would work for him or, and then I'd reenter the room and all of a sudden it would crash again.

And I kind of termed it, um, EM, uh, D electromagnetic disorder. I was, you know, convinced again, pointing the finger. Oh, it's, it's, you know, something going on electrical wise. And my colleague said, well, Esther, you've got big energy and you've got a real big presence and you need to learn how to organize that.

When you approach technology and your computer because energy also transcends, as we know, uh, across distances. So even on a computer, um, when we're having a telehealth session with an individual, our energy. Is being transferred through the screen. At least I believe that again. Um, that's my own personal, uh, kind of opinion, but that was a real game changer for me was approaching sessions and approaching individuals as every interaction being a sacred one.

And that I have to feel Zen calm and grounded in my own body and in my own mind. And all of a sudden it just opened up the most beautiful sessions. And I really feel that that, I mean, I think that's important if you're working with anybody, whether you're working with seniors or mental health or, you know, people just need to know on a very subliminal level, they need to feel love and they need to feel your love and understanding and your calmness.

And that can really help calm them and create a container for your interaction. 

I love that. I think you brought up a really good point about your energy. And, um, just having that calm energy. I think that's important for parents. I think that's a great strategy for parents to to realize, like, what energy are you bringing to the interaction when your child is overwhelmed, or your child is not regulated.

So, for example, last night, I don't know what my son was doing, why he thought this was a good idea, but he threw a squish mellow at it. My, like, I had this thing right here that has, like, these, um, planters on it, and one of the planters just fell over and busted into, like, tons of pieces, right? And I'm like Great trigger for you.

I was like, and I did not react appropriately the first time, and I was like, why, what are you doing? Like, why did you do that? And then I was like, whoa, whoa. Like, like I've said before on here, do I love him more than the broken pot or do I love the broken pot more than him? Like, what am I willing to do to, to tarnish our relationship?

Is the pot worth it? And so then I reeled it back in. I was like, okay. It was an accident, but just tell me what, what was going through your mind, like when you decided to do that. And then we like reeled it back in, but as soon as I yelled, he was like, ah, and I'm like, oh, okay. Like I'm dysregulated. He's getting dysregulated.

He's afraid that he looked like he was afraid. And I'm like, I do not want my child to ask like that, like to feel that with me, you know? So our energy can definitely, um, affect what's going on in our kids. And as music therapists too, like our energy affects the kid that we're working with. Um, I just, I love that you said that.

Hey there, it's Samantha. Are you a dedicated parent overwhelmed with navigating the unique challenges of raising a neurodivergent child? You find it tough to understand impulsive behaviors, manage transitions, address educational concerns, handle sensory stimulation, and navigate social interaction struggles.

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You'll have opportunities to ask questions, hear from other parents, and feel empowered as a parent and finally feel peace in your home. Join us on the second and third Thursdays of each month on Zoom. Visit www. everybrainisdifferent. com for more details. Let's embark on this journey together. Do you have any other parenting strategies or tips for parents that you would recommend when they're with their child?

Uh, well, you know, when you talked about that, that situation that happened with your son, I mean, bless all parents out there, whether they are parents of neurotypical or neurodivergent individuals or just diverse kids, um, you know, parenting, we all, I'm not saying anything new is the toughest job in the world.

And I am certainly, and have been certainly guilty of it. And still to this day. With not being regulated enough with my kids and my kids are older. Um, and it's a whole new world when you've got, you know, a college student and a 15 year old son, it's like you thought, Oh, you're going to get kind of over the things that are going to push your buttons and trigger you when you're younger, when they're younger.

Um, but you know, a whole new myriad of. Things come up like mocking and, and, you know, not, not following through on something that you asked them to do 10 million times in an hour and it is really hard to stay grounded. It's probably the hardest thing I think to do as a parent is to take those 10 breaths and stay calm.

Incredibly difficult. Um, I think advice for me with parents in general, whether it is. Neurodivergent parents or not, um, it's self care, take those times for self care. And for me, when my kids were younger, my self care was leaving the house and going on a run because in a way kind of, I don't know, somehow very ironically, I felt like I was running away and running away from my problems, but also running through them and getting somewhere.

And seeing the miles or kilometers that I had, because I'm in Canada so we're kilometers, um, that I had put behind me and feeling a sense of accomplishment while simultaneously doing something so proactive for my body, allowing me to have that endorphin release. Um, relaxing my muscles and then that really helped regulate me in order to be with my children.

And I think that's important, you know, for therapists, we always talk about self care too. Um, and we never do enough of that. And for me, a huge self care thing that happened early on as a music therapist was designating my music for myself and not sharing that. With my clients having a real segmented library of my music that I just keep for me, even though sometimes I, you know, at the beginning, cause of course, in the beginning of your music therapy career.

You're like pulling from everywhere right to build resources and you think, oh, I love this piece. Oh, I love Samuel Barber's Adagio and I love this piece of music and oh, I could bring that into a session and I could, you know, do creative movement to music with that. And I love this U2 song and, um, and for me, that was a real mistake.

I, you know, it, it was very successful because again, that energy transfer happened where my clients could feel how much I love that piece of music and they could share in it and they saw that I was willing to share that. So it's a real catch 22, right? Because it was very successful, but at the same time it tainted it for me.

If I was using music at work, then I had built this association. When I was listening to it for leisure and, you know, music is our world. And, you know, I was just at a presentation last night and I was talking about literally how my statement was. Music is my sustenance for me. Music is as much sustenance as food and oxygen and sleep.

And I needed to learn how to be more selfish. About keeping what brought me to this field in the first place and not feel guilty about that. Um, and, and keep that for me, something special and something tucked away. And, you know, as musicians and as music therapists, if we're really well rounded, we love lots of different genres.

We can appreciate and find the joy and grow to love other music, client preferred music as well. So I think if you're coming to it with a really open mind, um, you know, I used to be way more of a stuck up music snob when I was younger, especially as a teenager, I'd only listen to. What we called, and this is going to really date me, but you know, back in the eighties and early nineties, alternative music, you know, I was like, I was only going to listen to anything that was never on the radio.

So, and for me growing up in a small little town in Alberta, um, that meant. Things like the Smiths, and the Sex Pistols, and the Cure, and the Clash, and Billy Bragg, and New Order. And, uh, I didn't really, I was so determined to get away from the norm. Of everything else that I was listening or hearing on the radio that was like what I kind of call and still think to this day is bubble gum pop, you know, um, I, I couldn't appreciate anything else.

And I mean, I appreciate classical music because I was always classically trained since I was a young child as well. But I think over the years, my. Genres have expanded and I've appreciated. I don't know if it also comes with getting older, but I appreciate and find the beauty in other genres of music and, um, music that a client is excited about.

I really make the effort to be as excited or, or, you know, to explore what that world looks like for me. Because again, I think it's. Back down to energy and that's, what's going to really do it. 

Yeah, exactly. I love that you have music that's just for you and not for the clients. Cause it does like my, um, music on apple iTunes or apple music, whatever it's called.

Um, it's all like client based music because I use it so much like in sessions. And so I go on, if I just push shuffle, like. It will be like most repeated songs and I'll just have to listen to all the songs I do and in sessions I'm like this is not relaxing because it's just putting me back right into the sessions and thinking about the sessions and know what can I do here and what can I do here.

So, yeah, I definitely appreciate that you said that. Um, do you have any resources for parents or that you have yourself or just suggestions. 

Yeah, um, you know, as you mentioned in my bio, I've, uh, created a vocal led relaxation that's available for purchase on my website. Um, it's called rooted in music and, um, the music is quite sophisticated in the way that it's, um, it really can be used with young kids for parents, for self care for bedtime routines with their child to lie down and experience the relaxation together.

Um, for teens, it works for adults. It's being used. In seniors homes, it was originally created for autistic kiddos, but it's even, um, in the past been used in dental offices, um, for people who are neurodivergent or kids in general that have some anxiety about a dental procedure to just have, you know, the hygienist or whoever put it on, um, headphones for them to calm them.

It's got like a five minute version, a 10 minute version. a 20 minute version to transition to another activity and a 20 minute to fall asleep. And I think what makes it a little bit different is that I'm singing all of the directives. I found there to be a real disconnect between music and then the spoken voice.

Um, speak walking you through. Okay. Take a deep breath. So everything is sung with a really beautiful, consistent, um, piano accompaniment underneath that supporting it. So that's available for download and purchase, um, on the website. It's very cost effective. It's 20 Canadian. So it's even cheaper in American.

Um, and it's also part of. Uh, my music therapy curriculum, which is a, uh, called meet the music and that's for music therapists, um, as a resource, um, filled with over 165 different interventions, all coming with sheet music, instructional videos, audio files, the picture cards, everything you need in order to build your own bag of tricks for your own practice.

Um, is available, um, on a cloud platform as well called Unitas TI. 

Yeah, I use Unitas TI. I use meat in the music and it's, it's amazing. And they like help you write your goals and it, the assessment it, it's fantastic. Um, yeah. So where can people find you online if they want to connect with you? Learn more.

Uh, so if you're a parent and you're looking for the relaxation, you can go to et music therapy.com. There's a whole landing page about the relaxation. There's actually a whole landing page about. The meet the music curriculum. Um, if you're a music therapist and you're interested in the curriculum, you can go to mundo pato.

com, um, forward slash M I T M. So that's M U N D O P A T O forward slash, and then M I T M, uh, for short for me, the music. 

Awesome. Well, we are so grateful to have you on the show today. You've taught us a lot. I'm, I love everything you said and, um, Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. 

Well, thanks. Thanks for starting my day on such a nice casual conversational note.

Now I got to have more structured meetings, but it was really nice to see you guys. And thanks so much for having me on your podcast. 

Yes. Thank 

you. 

You're amazing. I loved it. 

Okay. She's amazing. What did you think of our first music therapist besides me on the show? 

I loved her. I, I think it was great.

There's a few things that really stood out to me. Um, the individual person centered approach of what does this child need? What do they like? What do they enjoy? What instruments? All of that. It's not an all one box fits all. Um, so I really liked that. And then Uh, you guys are using the word energy and in my, in my own world, I call them vibes.

And that's something I talk about and that I say, especially with staff, like just because they're nonverbal does not mean that they do not sense the vibes that you are putting out. And I was like, so you need to check yourself with that. And like, just because they're nonverbal, you don't know how much they can actually comprehend a lot of the times.

And so I, I kind of remind them to, um, Be mindful. Uh, so be aware, presence, what's going on with you, what's going on with them, and to be that calm. And then also that getting to a state of mindfulness is not easy to do, and that's why self care is really important. Um, to be able to, again, help regulate yourself so that you can help regulate others.

And so, I think, and she talked about having music just for her, and I think sometimes, Parents and caregivers and people feel guilty when they take time for themselves and you shouldn't like you need to take care of yourself. You need to have something for yourself so that you can be your best for other people.

And I think we a lot of times forget that and I think that guilt is, is very strong and, and overpowers some things. And so a reminder that it's okay. It's okay to have something that's just for you. And, and you need that in order to be the best for others. And so those were my like, my three big takeaways.

So, yeah. Amen 

to everything you said is I love, well, of course, in music therapy, you hope that all music therapists are, you know, using client preferred music and doing the assessment. Like she said. And, you know, putting out positive energy or vibes. And just because someone isn't speaking, definitely realize that they know what you're saying.

And if they don't understand everything you're saying, they understand the vibes that you're putting off. 

And with that, she mentioned intention, and I think that's really important. So a lot of times I go, even if they're not going to respond, or you don't think they have the comprehension, When you're doing something with an individual, you need to be talking to them.

Whether they hear or understand or not, it's the intention behind it. And, and so I really like that, that she brought that up as well because that's really important and that contributes to the energy, the vibes that you're putting out. And I agree, I agree with her that she thinks that maybe they have, you know, that increased sensory input elsewhere.

And so to just be, again, really mindful of those things. So. 

Yeah, definitely. Well, let us know how you all like the show this week and what your thoughts are. Any feedback. Happy Autism Acceptance Month because I'm not calling it Awareness Month. And yeah, let us know. Thanks for 

listening. Thank you for listening to this episode.

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